“THEY’RE not mutually exclusive.”
I’ve found myself saying that phrase over and over again recently. I’ve noticed it tends to happen. I’ll say something once then it becomes my flavour of the month only, this time, I’ve been saying it for so long it’s become one of my catchphrases and has been elevated to the lofty status of “put that on my headstone when I die” (the ultimate accolade any of my favourite quotes can hope to achieve).
The problem is, I’ve also found myself looking at people’s faces when I say it and wondering whether they have a clue what I’m talking about. I know that most of you reading my articles will already know this because you’re an intelligent bunch but, for those who don’t know or who aren’t sure, the Cambridge dictionary says that two things are mutually exclusive if they are not possible at the same time. Wikipedia’s definition is more helpful, saying that two events are mutually exclusive if they cannot both be true. A clear example is the set of outcomes of a single coin toss, which can result in either heads or tails, but not both.
So, when my wife is going away on holiday and says to me “will you miss me or will you be happy to have the house to yourself”, my immediate response is that those two things are not mutually exclusive. It is possible for me to both miss her and to be glad to have the house to myself at the same time. (I was tempted to crack a joke here but she might read this so I’ve decided against it.)
Now, to get to the crux of the article.
I have to admit that I am sick to death of the Simon Mignolet conversation. I listened to good friends of mine arguing the point on the post-match show on TAW Player after the Leicester City league game, and feel like I’ve been having the same debate with friends in person and via WhatsApp for an eternity.
A feisty free Anfield Wrap in the can. Coming soon. pic.twitter.com/q9Bikv45x2
— The Anfield Wrap (@TheAnfieldWrap) 24 September 2017
So, let me begin by making two statements which are not mutually exclusive and which are both true:
- Mignolet is not an absolutely shite goalkeeper.
- The vast majority of Liverpool supporters, including me, think that Liverpool FC should have a better goalkeeper than Mignolet.
What do you think? Are you fuming with the first one? I’d say about 50 per cent of my Liverpool supporting mates now say that Mignolet is absolutely shite. That’s the phrase they use. Absolutely shite.
It’s simply not true.
Mignolet is a good goalkeeper. Possibly even a really good goalkeeper. He is the second best goalie in the whole of Belgium, in second place only because of one of the top five ‘keepers in the world being ahead of him, and he is comfortably one of the better goalies in the Premier League (we’ll come back to this later as I can see the steam coming from some of your ears from here).
But here lies the problem. Mignolet burned out the heads of so many supporters during his early years at the club that even when he has a good run of form, in the minds of those supporters, he is still absolutely shite and it’s only a matter of time before he reveals his true self.
We’re all guilty of this one way or another. We all judge the players in front of us through the prism of our own subjectivity. I will defend a poor Jordan Henderson performance because I like Henderson and think he’s a good player, so when I’m watching him I’m subconsciously (possibly even consciously) happy to focus on the good things he does, while someone who can’t stand him will focus on every misplaced pass instead.
I remember having the same arguments with a mate about Lucas Leiva before he became flavour of the month, and I still think it would be an interesting exercise for two supporters with vastly opposing views of a player to sit down and watch a couple of matches together just focusing on that one individual and challenging each other’s biases.
Mignolet is no different. I had mates blaming him for goals conceded against Manchester City when the whole team in front of him had capitulated. He was probably my man of the match that day (faint praise, I know), having made a number of quality saves that kept Liverpool in the game early on, before City ripped them apart when The Reds went down to 10 men.
Likewise, when he made a good instinctive save against Leicester to tip the ball over the bar, the anti-Mignolet brigade gave him no credit, whereas should Danny Ward make the same save they would all laud his reflexes.
There’s also a second problem that compounds the argument between those of us who don’t think Mignolet is “absolutely shite” and those who do. There seems to be a common perception among the supporters who hate him most that other teams out there have goalkeepers who are far superior to Liverpool’s Belgian stopper.
I consistently hear names like Hugo Lloris, Jack Butland, Kasper Schmeichel and Liverpool’s very own Danny Ward, as if those players are all secretly as good as David De Gea and would be far better than Mignolet.
Unfortunately, that just isn’t the case. Liverpool supporters, more than any others I see, appear to think that everybody else’s players are far better than The Reds’ players, based on snippets of footage they see each week.
I’ve made a point of watching closely players like Lloris over recent months and the thought of him playing at Anfield actually tickles me. A player who is looked at with admiring glances via Match of the Day and the odd live game would have the Main Stand tearing its collectively receding hair out.
Just last night he came rushing out of his goal only to kick a ball against his centre back and give a clear chance to the opposition. It went wide, though, so you won’t see that highlighted anywhere.
I watched Thibaut Courtois miskick a simple back pass out for a corner three weeks ago, give an unnecessary penalty away two weeks ago and De Gea let a shot from long range slip through his hands onto the crossbar. Butland can’t kick, Schmeichel is average and Everton’s vertically-challenged ‘keeper got lobbed on his own goal line against Spurs a couple of weeks ago.
My general point is this; I think everyone overestimates how good goalkeepers at other clubs are these days and how easy it would be to get one better than Mignolet. Real Madrid won the La Liga and Champions League double last season with Keylor Navas in goal. Have you ever watched him play? He’s like 95 per cent of all other goalies, pulling off some great saves while at the same time being an absolute liability.
I’ve been saying for a while that I’m going to write a book entitled “If that was Mignolet…” and now might be the optimum time to do it. Come to think of it, it might work better as one of those DVDs you get for your dad at Christmas with Danny Baker doing the voice over.
Just footage of ‘keepers from across the league and around the world making the kind of mistakes we tend to ignore in everyone other than Liverpool’s shot stopper, with Baker popping up in the corner of the screen every 30 seconds making a quip about how if that was Mignolet Liverpool fans would invade the pitch and rip his head off.
Just to be clear, would I rather that Liverpool had a better goalkeeper than Mignolet? Absolutely, yes, I would. But who are they, really? De Gea plays for Manchester United so Liverpool can’t have him. Manuel Neuer plays for Bayern Munich so Liverpool are extremely unlikely to be able to convince him to join (I would try, by the way). Courtois plays for Chelsea so, again, is extremely unlikely to move to Anfield.
We’ve already bought the second best ‘keeper in Germany and, based on last night’s performance, everything else he’s done in a red shirt and the poll that TAW did on Twitter earlier today, it’s clear that very few of us think he’s better than Mignolet, on the basis that he doesn’t make any saves.
Who would you start vs Newcastle?
— The Anfield Wrap (@TheAnfieldWrap) 27 September 2017
As for Danny Ward, I can see why people want to see him given a go, but let’s not kid ourselves that just because he had a good season for Aberdeen in Scotland followed by a successful one with Huddersfield in the Championship he can solve all Liverpool’s goalkeeping issues overnight.
If Mignolet had spent the last two seasons playing for those clubs in those divisions we’d be getting rave reviews about him as well. Unfortunately for him, he’s been playing his football in front of the most critical supporters in football history, who think that every shot should be saved and every pass should be Xabi Alonso-esque.
I’ve seen mates saying that Mignolet has managed to “Hodge” the life out of some of the supporters and convince us that we don’t need a better ‘keeper, which I don’t think is right at all. I think that those of us who don’t despise him see him for what he is; a good goalkeeper who has improved vastly in the past 12 months, but still has a calamitous mistake in him.
I was with everyone else on Saturday evening when questioning why he didn’t want to use his hands to collect the ball in his box rather than flying out with his feet, missing the ball and taking out Jamie Vardy instead. I still don’t think that he has enough presence about him to play in goal for Liverpool and I’m still baffled by the fact that Brendan Rodgers bought him when he isn’t like Pepe Reina with the ball at his feet.
As with all positions in Liverpool’s team I’d happily upgrade to any player who is better than the ones Klopp has currently. I love Roberto Firmino, but if you can show me someone Liverpool could buy who has the same impact on the team as him and scores 30 goals a season, I’d upgrade in a heartbeat. The problem is that those players often don’t exist and, if they do, everybody else wants them as well.
I’ve seen people suggesting that Liverpool should just go down the Alex Ferguson route of buying two ‘keepers every season until one of them turns out to be good. I might be inclined to do that myself if I was the manager, but we should all know by now that that simply isn’t how Klopp operates, and if you want a manager to work that way he is not the man for the job.
It’s also worth remembering that De Gea didn’t look like this version when he first signed, so the chances are that even if we think we’ve spotted someone like him we’d have to put up with another few seasons of him bedding in before ending up with the ‘keeper of our dreams (which, by the way, is what I think he’s doing with Loris Karius now).
The reality in my eyes is that there are a handful of elite goalkeepers in the world, after which everyone else is much of a muchness, and switching from Mignolet to Jack Butland might distract everyone for a while but only until he burns everyone’s heads out in the same way that most ‘keepers have in recent memory.
I think it’s healthy when looking at goalies from lower ranked clubs to remember Scott Carson, Chris Kirkland, Ben Foster and all of the other lads over the years who could perform in mid-table teams but simply couldn’t handle the pressure and unique challenge of playing for one of the biggest teams in the world.
Ultimately, though, it is possible for us to agree that Mignolet and Karius are not what we see as the ideal quality of goalkeeper to play in goal for Liverpool on a weekly basis, while accepting that not being quite good enough for Liverpool’s highly demanding supporters doesn’t mean that they’re absolutely shite.
Not mutually exclusive. A bit like me telling my wife I’ll miss her while she’s on holiday while being absolutely made up to have the house to myself…
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Can I just say I miss Pepe Reina… *sigh* (And fuck off with the ‘he made mistakes’ – yeah, he did, he’s also still damn decent and top lad with it… I digress).
Agree with challenging fans perceptions… me and sister are in 102 for the autocup and there’s a gang of ol’ lads next to us who are absolute Moreno haters, criticising every little ‘half-mistake’, not just the mad things he does… which, to be fair, since we’ve been sat near these lads, he hasn’t really done. I attempted to sign them up for the official Albie Fan Club after the neat one-two and cross he put in for Bobby’s opener against Sevilla – they weren’t keen, but hey, I hope they stay off his back a little bit, the lil pup’s trying at least…
I swung my sister’s view on Sturridge a while back – for my money, seeing (or rather, not seeing) him on TV does not often illustrate so many of the runs that aren’t given a pass, or movements that aren’t picked out and so on… but you know, he’s just injured and shite now isn’t he? Pfft… (Shoulda buried at least one against Moscow last night though, bloody hell).
One thing is at least clear – Emre Can is currently costing us more goals than any of the keepers and something needs doing about THAT before anything else… last night’s was obvious (even if there were two or three phases of play after the monumentally stupid ‘pass’ back, but so much ‘knocking off’ and not picking up runners lately is really letting down a guy who actually has an eye for a pass and a good bit-of-bastard about him when he fancies it too… again, ‘balance’ is key. Hmm, ‘balance’ – I sound like Rafa Benitez, who we got next then? Oh…
Migs has improved over his time with us.
He’s controlling his box better and coming for more balls but he’s just not good enough to be part of a title winning team.
Would he start for any of the other top teams in the Prem?
I don’t see it.
Unfortunately I find myself answering the same for too many players down our spine.
I had high hopes for Karius but he just doesn’t convince. I made a point of paying attention to Ward last season and defo so far this season and he looks a better keeper than Karius already.
You’ve watched YouTube last summer and convinced yourself karius wasn’t mignolet. Now you’ve convinced yourself ward isn’t those two.
Pretty much sums up Paul’s piece really
It’s amazing that you know what I have and havnt watched and when I watched them.
You’re wrong.
How many 90 mins of Huddersfield did you watch? I mean, in the ground to get a real feeling for his ability…not just 2 mins on goals on Sunday?
My judgment isn’t based upon “feeling for his ability”.
If yours is I can immediately point to why you “feel” you’re right but actually you’re not.
so please explain what it is based upon. I’m interested as to how much Huddersfield football you watched last season.
Mignolet IS an absolutely shite goalkeeper – for a club with elite level ambitions – and no amount of excuses wrapped up in lengthy articles will change that. He’s shite. He shouldn’t he been bought and he needs to go. As does Karius. War isn’t ready for elite level yet, therefore we need a new goalkeeper.
So go on…..who?
An decent offer to City for Joe Hart. That’s who. Ten times the Keeper feeble Mignolet is.
But then when did this club ever make decent offers. Placate the average. Dismiss those who don’t spout “were gonna win the league.” We are not winning anything with Mignolet et al and yet excuses are supposed to convince.
Oh come on! I can’t believe there’s still someone banging the Joe Hart drum – have you watched him recently or seen his stats for this season and last?
He is absolutely 100% not an upgrade on Mignolet.
Joe Hart???? Fuck off! Next you’ll be trying to sell us Petr Cech without noticing he’s gone down the drain in the last 3 seasons.
Hart, Cech, Lloris, Buttland, Forster, Foster are not better than Mignolet. You might want to argue 1% either way and that’s fine. But we’ll have this same conversation in 12 months time.
Do you want some matchsticks?
spot on Paul. The confirmation bias at the moment is mad. So many see, or don’t see, absolutely anything to justify the stance.
Moving away from goalkeepers….the current Moreno thing is he’s improved but still not good enough. Why can’t he keep improving though? And would anyone really want Ashley young or, now, Fabian Delph at left back? And how’s Ben chilwell looked…best left back ever last summer I seem to recall.
It’s really mad
He hasn’t improved at his defending.
He’s a leftback.
A defender.
He’s improved going forward but that isn’t really what’s called into question with him.
Ok mate
“It’s also worth remembering that De Gea didn’t look like this version when he first signed, so the chances are that even if we think we’ve spotted someone like him we’d have to put up with another few seasons of him bedding in before ending up with the ‘keeper of our dreams (which, by the way, is what I think he’s doing with Loris Karius now).”
Sure Paul…Players need time to develop, but what do you consider to be a “few seasons”?
What happened to De Gea and Courtois for example then? How come they developed into the “versions” they are today given the amount of time they were at their respective English clubs?
Both these keepers came into very high pressure environments. Courtois had a crap first season at Chelsea even though they won a trophy and then he went on to win the league title the next season.
De Gea came in and had a very tough first season, but won honors including the league title the following season. So both these guys had spent time in A. Madrid but EPL is different and where it counts since LFC is in this league.
Do you think Chelsea fans and United fans are any different from our fickle fans who also put pressure on their players?
So how many seasons has Migs had with LFC? And how many seasons has the goalkeeping coach John Atcherberg had with LFC and what exactly has he contributed since his appointment towards the development of goalkeepers?
Based on the above two, how many seasons would Karius or Ward need to develop into a consistent performer between the sticks and minimize mistakes that happen to all keepers during big or small matches?
It’s one thing to scout a potential goal keeper it’s another to help them develop them into a world class keeper that can do the job consistently at a high pressured environment like LFC.
Btw: United is up 4-0 in the 73 minute against a crap CSKA side, and De Gea has made some impressive saves to keep out the silly goals that have cost us greatly aside from our poor finishing. Fucking scum!
I hope Klopp figures out his first 11 sooner than later for his sake and the keeper’s sake.
Here’s one….he would have saved that free kick last night.
I agree with most of article. In terms of goalkeeping in this league, De Gea is head and shoulders above the rest, and the rest are pretty much playing at a lower level.
Migs was good enough to play for us when we finished 2nd, and 4th last year and he’s clearly working on his game as the improvement over the past 12 months shows. Surely we cant keep playing Karius in the CL now, after last night – Mig’s keeps that free kick out in his sleep.
Looking forward to seeing Ward getting a run out in the FA cup ? He looks a lot more assured with the ball on the floor than either Karius or Mignolet.
Might be talking nonsense but I ve a watched a good bit of young polish keeper grabara , the lad has a big future
Not saying he should be thrown in at the deep end but I can’t help but think back to Casillas at Madrid and now the young lad at Milan , giving a go at a very early age and reaped / are reaping the award s
Good piece but I do feel this argument of “find a better player than x” is a bit lazy. First of all the law of probabilities would suggest that you can find alternatives in any position on the pitch given the size of the globe (although I accept every signing is a 50-50 gamble at best).
The other thing that irks me about this argument is when people challenge by saying “name me a better player”. Well you know what, fans can’t possibly know all the possibilities out there, that’s the job of the scouts and stats men. That’s what they are paid for and that’s why our lack of defensive reinforcements this summer were so pitiful.
As someone once said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over. Sometimes you just need to mix it up and take a gamble. Sometimes it pays off and you find the right defensive dynamic.
FWIW I still think Karius, despite the limited gametime, is the best keeper we’ve got and I suspect the stats would quite possibly show that he’s far from the worst keeper on our books.
Great piece Paul. Here’s the problem, most LFC supporters’ sample size of other keeprs are when other keepers play us, which home and away typically means that (even in a 3 to 5-1 LFC victory) they’ve save about a gazillion close range 9.9 out of 10 shots on the day that our attackers have put directly at their hands and chest.
Maybe the challenge should be to ‘find a better keeper than Mignolet who plays in a similar system with a similar level of defenders in front of him and a similar level of opponents every week’. I think before anyone manages that, our forwards will have started taking more of the countless chances we create and we can go back to not giving much of a toss about the keeper for a while. Or alternatively, Southampton might relent in January and we might finally get a proper organiser in at centre half. Nobody was really blaming Mignolet for us not winning the league 3 years ago, when he was even less imposing than he is now.
I am not in either camp on Mignolet but he has made massive progress in the past 12 months, he’s presence has become stronger, he’s catching better. He’s shot stoping has always been a strong point. Even the kicking aspect has improved also. Decision making isn’t the best mainly due to confidence. I seen Danny Ward in the Lge cup match judge a ball perfectly from about 40 yards out, came all the way. committed himself fully and claimed the ball through a crowd of players.
I would love to see Mignolet this confident & I think he doesn’t use he’s height as much as he should. Ward looks he’s height but Mignolet looks a lot smaller towards him cause he doesn’t come and catch the ball therefore offer relief to the defence at times.
That catch that Danny Ward did was high risk in itself. Watch how we lands with it – could easily have spilled it in the crowd of players.
Top GKs simply do not come for balls like that – they expect the defence to win it. In fact GKs rarely clear everyone out and claim it these days – they generally take a cross inside a pocket around 3-6 yards from the goal created by the defence not dropping deep. Anything further out, if its crowded they leave it alone.
All the more to enjoy Wards confidence and ability to show he’s defenders how its done. Even higher risk leaving it to defenders. He had to impress and so he did.
A note on Karius, he is getting the same treatment as Mignolet did at the start of his career, our fanbase can be incredibly dumb at times, players play better with encouragement, especially young keepers, most of the best keepers we know only became very good in their late 20’s or early 30’s. We have to start backing Karius, the wall left him down big time in Moscow and it was too easy to finger point at Karius.
The only keeper in the world football that I think we could get and would be keeper for 10 years easily at Anfield is AC Milan’s Donnaruma, I watch Milan a decent bit and he is World Class already which is quiet rare for his tender age as a GK.
My message would be to back our GK’s and give them the confidence cause by doing that the percentage to get better is vastly improved plus that makes our team more successful.
Well said. I’d include all our players in that message. In reality the probability of us winning anything this season is very tiny all things considered right now, but it becomes bigger through supporting our players throughout the season, and it becomes even smaller by endlessly calling them shite on social media and in the ground. I’ve seen someone use the words “self-sabotage” when describing FSG but I’d say our fanbase are really good at that as well. We want to win things, I cannot understand why we’d make it harder for our players to do that.
Karius made the mistake of diving for it.
Watch De Gea, Courtois etc – it flies in, they stand and watch then the wall gets the blame for blocking his view.
Mad how football works sometimes.
There are probably about 1 goalkeepers in world footy better than him, all not available.
Mignolet is absolutely shite