Neil Atkinson was joined by Dan Austin, Ben Johnson and Craig Hannan for what feels like a trip back in time as Liverpool threw away a comfortable lead away at Bournemouth whose second half comeback saw them score four second half goals.
// TAW SHOP
// TAW APP
// PARTNERS
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Just about to listen but before I do and feel a bit shady afterwards I want to make my points based on how I’m feeling and not get swayed by what will probably be more reasoned and knowledgable points.
Before I make my points I want to start by saying I’ve just bollocked my lad for eating 6 Rolo desserts since last night. Earlier today I’d probably have let that go. These are points I’ve been making to my mates all through the winning streak though.
Today, we had our spine missing or exposed at least. It’s obvious Matip has been huge for both Lovren and the keeper. I posed a question to mates recently, if all fit should/ could any of our first 11 be upgraded? My answer was much as I personally think Karius is wank the position that can easily be strengthened is Lovren. Too costly despite having an ok season to date. Karius has to stop the second and it’s that goal that lost us the match. Keep that out and we win. Simple. He continues to look all over the place to me. I’ll be happy if we give him more time but I see nothing as yet. If he ends up costing us the league i.e. we lose it by 1 point then it’ll grate on me because we have a keeper on the bench who though not good enough for LFC is better than the one playing at this point in time.
Another thing that’s galled me for a long time is the Lucas situation. All I hear is how great he is. Look, I like loyal players too and good servants but ultimately they have to be good enough for the league. I simply don’t think he is. Harsh considering his position today but none the less I believe it. He’s a great option for the League Cup but he’s not a centre half and I don’t necessarily want to see him as a DM. The cult status winds me up a little (although when we win I play along with it). I even read a comment on here last week that he’s never asked to leave. Absolute nonsense if his quotes and his agents are to be believed. It’s more that for whatever reason a deal has fallen through 3 times to Spain, Italy and Turkey. I’m in no mood for sentiment today. We need a centre back if Klavan can’t be trusted. Melissa will say it’s Gomez but apart from being largely unproven he hasn’t been fit for 18 months. I’d feel a lot happier if Lovren was our third choice.
I got the piss taken out of me earlier and conceded I was wrong after half an hour but I raised concerns pre match about this game with the aforementioned and Origi up front. Again, he keeps proving me wrong but there’s something about him that worries me. Not that he was at fault for goals 2 and 3 (among others) I don’t think he particularly fits Klopp’s style. I would have liked to see him swap with Firmino today. Firmino wasn’t in the game but actually, Origi can stretch the play and probably does have an important role. I just worried that in that team today he wouldn’t help matters and I stand by it in hindsight. Very unfair on him considering his recent record, the number of games he’s played and his age. I put the game changing more down to Fraser coming on but you could also say it was Mane going off. We didn’t have anyone to keep the ball up front. My final point I’ve been making for a while is Henderson, Wijnaldum and Can doesn’t work well for me. Substitute Lallana for Can and it’s a different story. Appreciate Can is only 23 (in the next few weeks) and is scoring good goals now and playing well but I’m talking about balance to the side. Like I say, I raised all these point pre-match so it’s not entirely about being angry.
Anyway, I feel I needed to vent. It’s one loss. We’re in a good position, got a few injuries and I’m confident we’ll bounce back. I think we need a centre half though. All our issues today come down to that. Anything else I actually think we’ve enough to cope.
Excellent analysis Robin. Agreed.
Hope your kid left you the last Rolo dessert!!
This is the thing mate. I bought 8 because the supermarket were selling them cheap. I felt a bit down after the game and remembered I’d bought them. Guess what, none left. It just felt like being kicked when you’re down. A subsequent count of how many each person had had revealed me none, wife 2, daughter out since yesterday evening and only just got home late this afternoon (none). Son 6. But, I’d bought 4 scones too so I thought cup of tea an a scone. It had me wondering which cupboard I’d put them in but then I saw the empty box by the bin. Livid. And they say, you never buy snacks. Is it any effing wonder?
P.s now I’m calm(ish) I feel a bit tight on Can and Origi. My point was the 3 of them in the middle means the balance is wrong but in fairness we had injuries today. Just a general remark. The other thing was that Origi is more suited out wide imo. When Mane went off we could have done with him keeping the ball down the wing like Mane was doing and Firmino didn’t today. So, points about shape and balance rather than individual ability.
The contibution from Ben Johnson in that discussion was truly awful I had to stop listening half way through. He was allowed to dominate that conversation with his black is white and white is black bollocks, everything was rosy it was just a one in a million game. I get that the idea on the Anfield Wrap is everyone expresses their opinions whatever they are and without regulation and you let the chips lie where they fall. But when the dominant theme after such a shit loss is from a person just in denial (the defence didn’t look that bad to me today, I mean really??!!! Our defence wasn’t bad because they only had 5 shots; how about that it conceded from 4 of them!) at least have someone who can counter that view robustly to bring some balance. And Ben, peppering every third word with ‘fucking’ doesn’t make you any more persuasive.
I’ve always thought this site is a decent listen for when things are going well but not when we lose or there is some other controversial issue brewing. There is a reticence to call things as they are, it always has to be underplayed and minimised. Liverpool won’t cease to exist as a club and the fans won’t come out in revolt if someone calls a spade a spade. Our goaly was utter shite today as was that defence. The goaly has not been convincing at all. And if you are 2-0 and then 3-1 up in a game and contrive to lose it somehow you can never blame the fans for getting worked up over that – that should never ever happen from a team with serious ambitions for the title against one which will see staying in the league as success. And it isn’t a bolt from the blue either because it is a consistent theme over the past 3-4 years.
None of this is having a go at Klopp or asking for massive changes in the team. It’s just acknowledging the shortcomings that we have. After an inexplicable loss like this you listen to a podcast to hear some honesty and help let off steam. Instead when you hear the kind of denial going on here it just increases your frustration. As I said, please have a bit more balance in your podcasts. It will help not hurt what you are trying to do here.
I’m also pissed off after today mate. But, if that’s his opinion then that’s his opinion. Would you want him to change it make your anger feel more justified? Much as my head has almost fallen off it was actually fine lines. By that I mean a couple of key minutes go differently and we could be coming away with an entirely different view point and probably a more realistic one. For me, the whole game turned on its head when Henderson cropped Stanislas. I said to mates before the game I felt our run was gonna be over today. When Can scored I got a bit of stick over my pre-match comments and replied with ‘ok, I think the importance of the game just made my head go, I didn’t take into account the fact that we’re brilliant’. 20 minutes later and we’d lost. From my point of view am I to think we were absolute wank today? It’s slightly hypercritical if I do. As it happens I just think we need a new centre half and put Origi out wide. I don’t think it’s fair to say someone isn’t being honest though because they don’t think like you. There’s certainly nothing to worry about.
Needing them to justify my anger and dishonesty, Robin with respect, what are you on about?
The point I am making is not that BJ’s views needs to be stifled or amended as they aren’t the same as mine, but that there needs to be more views or a proper range of views for a credible discussion.
If at the end of a 4-3 loss the person who dominates the discussion concludes: Bournemouth were shit and fluked it; the defence was fine despite us conceding 4 goals; Karius on current form is no worse than Mignolet; fans are just overreacting and we will go and twat West Ham 8-0 next week, then fair enough and he is welcome to his opinions however blinkered I may find them. However if there is going to be a credible discussion then surely the more obvious analysis, i.e. our defence is a bit shit and we have a problem with the goalkeeper and centreback positions should also be given serious airing. There should be a fair representation of this alternative and more obvious view as well. Otherwise it’s a bit like discussing the causes of Brexit without bringing up immigration. Sure there are other factors that people may genuinely believe were the reasons. But you cannot have a credible discussion without looking at what is the most obvious issue. That doesn’t mean you have to adopt it as your own but at least discuss it seriously even if it’s just playing devil’s advocate.
For you it might be a great discussion anyway. In my view it isn’t and lacks credence. Like you, as someone who subscribes and spends time listening to the podcasts I have the right to express that view and I am not going to have anyone tell me I don’t. There needs to be a greater diversity in the range of opinions which there often just isn’t.
Your point seems to be based around “there needs to be more views or a proper range of views for a credible discussion”. Firstly, I don’t think the Pink is a credible discussion. I think it’s a post match reaction as in the way mates talk when they meet up in the pub after the game. Secondly, you seem to want a range of views but because Ben has a different view to you you’re not happy. You haven’t singled the others out so I’m presuming it’s only one view you didn’t like. Surely, greater diversity in the range of opinions means different views?
Also, for what it’s worth I don’t agree with all his points but I agree we’ll batter West Ham next week. I certainly don’t think we have massive problems in the defence and the keeper despite my earlier points. I think Ben put it down to ‘one of them’. I wouldn’t, I’d put it down to not having Matip. I truly believe the whole defence is fragile without him. With him we’ve looked ok, without him we haven’t. It’s that simple. He’s back next game. I think we need back up for him.
Again, for what it’s worth, I made the same criticism recently as you have that there appears to be lack of willing to criticise on the shows. In TAW’s defence I’d say it’s probably better they do avoid knee jerk reactions as they’re clearly something the likes of me and you get after a loss but are often just that – knee jerk. One can’t claim at 2.30pm today that we’re the absolute business then at 3pm claim we’ve got problems all over the place. We haven’t. Look mate, I get your anger today. I’ve got it myself. I just feel it’s wrong to launch a personal attack because someone has a different view. We played well for 75 minutes today. Very well until half time so he’s not far wrong. We just lacked a leader at the back and it cost us. Anyway, I’m not actually arsed so forget it. I mentioned it because I felt it was unfair that you criticised so strongly what in the morning will seem like a valid opinion. We don’t have problems, or won’t when Matip returns and we didn’t do that badly today. We just lost it for what 5 mins? 10 maybe. Each to their own view though.
Our problem that remains to be solved is that we can’t just settle down and be solid defensively for a bit (when we are threatening to score goals). This is and will continue to be a problem if we take our foot off the gas, lose interest, lose momentum, or if the goals won’t go in…or during phases of the game where we aren’t in contro…or yes, if and when we get ‘unlucky’. Defensive instability will continue to haunt us at inopportune times. That isn’t to say I think we need to change how we play, we just need to be as confident and solid at the back as we so often are in midfield and going forward.
excuse the typos…
first sentence: when we *aren’t* threatening…
second sentence: *control*
Enjoyed the pink. Cannot believe some of the rants on this comments section. We will be fine. Sitting in a good position in the league – enjoy being in the race. Today was a shitter, it happens and the manager has seen what we have seen. He is clever enough to figure out whether today’s performances were a one off or whether there is an ongoing pattern, and he will call it right.
We’ll be fine, enjoy the race, shit happens doesn’t win you leagues. You have to be ruthless. January is a few weeks away. I’d rather Klopp was looking at the fact that if Matip gets injured the reality is we probably can’t win the league and the critics are all correct in their assessment of us. I’ll reiterate, Karius is wank but we can probably get away with him if we have a decent centre back pairing. Lucas is not a premier league centre back. Lovren has done ok but at the very top of the premier league he’s not consistent enough. We’ve seen it for time now – Matip is masking it. Matip’s missed 3 games and we’ve conceded 9. In the 11 he’s played we’ve conceded 9. That’s the reality. It needs saying. Call it a rant all you want but I don’t believe in fairies. I believe in helping yourself and helping yourself is buying a centre half in January if it’s a possibility. If Matip breaks his leg in early February then ‘we’ll be fine’ isn’t gonna cut it. We won’t be. We won’t even get top 4. We’ve been warned.
Honestly lads you don’t know how much better listening to this made me feel. People can fume all they want but i’m with Johnno. For me, absolutely everything points to today being ‘one of those’.
If that game has suddenly got people worried about playing West Ham next week, then they clearly didn’t see the first 45 or have watched us in almost every single game this season. Will we win the league? I don’t know because Chelsea really are worrying me now but if we could have had this many points after 14 games at the start of the season, everyone would have paid for it. The 2 games we have lost just make it a bit frustrating.
Gonna stick up for this Pink. You could’ve gone in much harder on the Reds but there’ll be plenty of time for that on the mid-week shows. Ben Johnson dismissing 03/04 Arsenal as boring pricks had me doubled over – I badly needed that laugh.
Everyone fails to win games they should win – christ, look at City’s results since winning their first six. But it’s the context that counts. Can just about guarantee that neither City nor Chelsea will blow a two goal lead against middling opposition this season. On the Pink after the Arsenal win, someone made a great point about how you can pick up 5-10 points a season just by not being stupid. This is an area we’ve improved in since August. We’ve dropped 3 largely for that reason here.
Too many terms and conditions attached to Lovren’s form when he’s playing well. I get that centre halves prefer to work in partnerships – probably moreso than any other position – but he crumbles without Matip (and we witnessed a similar trend last season, when he looked panicky without Sakho after they’d formed a promising bond). I desperately want the league and will for as long as it remains possible. Just hard to see it happening for a side where Lucas has become your 3rd choice. Wishing Gomez a speedy return to full fitness. Trying to avoid writing off the keeper, starting to lose patience though.
More broadly, at what point do these two-goal collapses go from being unlucky to being systematic? I know it’s the first time it’s happened this season, but it’s also the 4th time it’s happened since February. Can’t really have it both ways with Klopp’s expect-the-best approach as his players usually do figure out solutions to problems that crop up, though I have a criticism here. Three teenagers in the bench is probably better suited to a home game where the crowd can get behind them if their services are required. If this match was played behind closed doors with no-one watching, Ejaria would’ve been a decent shout around 75, but the situation / atmosphere made that a risky option, with no real others to choose from. Is Stewart injured? Another cool head with fresh legs was needed. If for nothing else than to allow 45 seconds for Henderson to have a word with everyone.
I’m overreacting, but right now it’s a similar feeling to the Sevilla defeat. Like you say, it’s only one of them if we immediately return to winning. And ensure that this never happens again. Twat the Hammers and get back on track.
The Pink is enjoyable because it’s like a pub discussion and they always get heated on pint number three. If we struggle against West Ham I’ll be very worried but I truly believe we will outclass them. Burnley was a good kick up the arse and this will be as well. The key point stands: we have to be ruthless at 2-0.
Matip plays we win, the defence & keeper has been solid with him. Lucas is not a ch never has been never will be, for him to be our back up option is a joke, our squad is just not strong enough, no option on the bench to change it, mane goes off we bring a half cooked lallana & stop attacking (apart from an origin chance) no forward options but kids, love DS but we need him now & he’s not available & thats not good enough, sick of hearing about but when everyone’s fit when are they all getting their minutes, this title is there for the taking, we lost out by 2 points in 13/14 we can’t say it’s 3points lost in December, it’s 3points thrown away end off!! For me we need a ch & another forward option, Lucas & klaven not good enough, sick of hearing about but Joe Gomez is back soon, the lad hasn’t played for a yr!!! Sturridge is great, love him but we just can’t rely on the lad. All just my humble opinion.
As for the pink, I know It’s reactionary & I normally like him but BJ done my head in big time.