WATFORD were rightly pleased with themselves after Sunday’s comprehensive win. And why not? Tipped by many to go down, they are seventh in the Premier League table, a point off the Champions League spots, after walloping a team with a trophy cabinet they can only dream of.
Troy Deeney, in particular, had lots to say afterwards. His comments that he “bullied” our centre halves and that “they just didn’t fancy the fight” no doubt had an element of bravado about them, but also probably a bit of truth. While I can’t imagine Martin Skrtel really went off because “he didn’t fancy it”, he certainly didn’t seem to be enjoying himself too much on the pitch.
Most Liverpool fans seem a bit fed up with Skrtel now. The tough-man look without the tough-man game. All tattoos and no tackles. A player who seems to owe a lengthy Liverpool career to the fact that we always had something else that needed sorting out first.
Or is a lack of viable options? Have Liverpool looked around and decided the lad who is seven out of 10 at everything will do? That talented centre halves are so few, the premium they cost isn’t worth the risk or the financial focus?
The lack of top-class English centre halves in particular is staggering. For all the problems English football has had in the past, producing centre halves wasn’t one of them. Lads who looked like they were made of granite and could head it away all day.
Steve Bruce won a bucketload of medals at Old Trafford but never won a single England cap, such was the competition in his position. Now at Manchester United Chris Smalling, a decent player but certainly no Bruce, has 21 caps for his country. Phil Jones has 20. They will both probably finish their careers with 50-plus.
More recently than the man with a head like a beach ball, Jamie Carragher was playing in Champions League finals but couldn’t get a regular place in the England team. Ahead of him were the considerable forces of Rio Ferdinand and John Terry, defenders who would have got in any national side at the time. He also had to worry about the likes of Ledley King and Jonathan Woodgate, whose injury-plagued careers shouldn’t distract from their talent. Both of them would walk into the England team now. Even if they couldn’t walk.
Surely we shouldn’t have to look too far for a commanding centre half to replace our timid Slovak? In the past we’ve even produced a few of our own. Do Jamie Carraghers, Phil Thompsons or Tommy Smiths not exist in the city any more? Or are we doing something to them? Knocking out their fight?Deeney thinks defenders don’t like defending any more. He said: “It’s all pretty passing football, they all want to play like Barcelona.” He might have a point.
At some point in this country it was decided that we weren’t producing players of a high enough technical level. Maybe this was correct. But are we obsessing over producing a team with perfect technique instead of recognising that, in certain positions, other characteristics are more important?
I watch a fair amount of Under-18s football. The technical level in this country is astounding. But all the academies play a similar way: 4-2-3-1. Short passing. Centre halves who could play in midfield. How much does this prepare you for “real” football? Players like Troy Deeney don’t exist at academy level. He was rejected by Aston Villa and instead joined Chelmsley Town.
I think there are a few players at the academy right now that could make it at Liverpool. But I worry about the defenders. How is the academy system is preparing them for what is ahead? It’s all too nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8E12r5q-nw
To make matters worse they are shielded from other types of football from a very age. I heard a story the other day of a five year old at the academy who was not allowed to play football with his friends at school. Why? What are they scared of? Someone kicking him? I hope they do. Because West Brom kick you, so you better get used to it.
The loan system is supposed to help with this. To get footballers used to a more physical brand of football at a lower level.
The problem is these clubs don’t seem to fancy the defenders. This Is Anfield posted on Twitter that Ryan McLaughlin, highly thought of at Melwood, is on his way home from Aberdeen because he can’t get a game. Joe Maguire, who started a pre-season game for Liverpool in the summer, has already left Leyton Orient because he couldn’t hold down a place.
They are two very technically gifted players that, bizarrely, still might make it at Liverpool. But Aberdeen and Leyton Orient couldn’t give them a start in leagues where physicality is more important.
It is no coincidence to me that the best defenders in this country at the moment developed away from the elite academy system. Gary Cahill became a top-class defender at Bolton Wanderers. Phil Jagielka played over 250 times for Sheffield United before moving to Everton. When he was 17, instead of playing for Manchester United Under-18s, John Stones was playing for Barnsley’s first team.
All three of those can pass a ball, they can all play. But they all learned, the hard way, what to do with a striker who throws his elbow in your face. They got tough. They had no choice.
Chelsea bid £30million for John Stones in the summer because, will all their resources, they can’t figure out how to produce a young player like him. Maybe they are doing it wrong. Maybe we all are. Maybe for a centre half a couple of years at Barnsley is worth 10 years of short passing drills at an academy.
For Liverpool to develop a centre half we need to find a way to toughen them up. To get them exposed to lads like Troy Deeney. This could be a recognition that our own coaching staff don’t have all the answers. That Jamie Carragher might have learned as much playing for Bootle Boys as he did for Liverpool reserves.
Otherwise? Well we could hope there’s a decent kid knocking about at Barnsley or simply dread the day the Reds face another Troy Deeney.
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Pics: Propaganda-Photo–David Rawcliffe
Could it be as simple as looking at those leagues that have a need for physical defenders?
Isn’t that what we used to do e.g. Alan Hansen, Mark Lawrenson.
If we have to sacrifice excellence on the ball, then so be it.
‘Most Liverpool fans seem a bit fed up with Skrtel now. The tough-man look without the tough-man game. All tattoos and no tackles.’
Hello!
‘Surely we shouldn’t have to look too far for a commanding centre half to replace our timid Slovak? In the past we’ve even produced a few of our own. Do Jamie Carraghers, Phil Thompsons or Tommy Smiths not exist in the city any more?’
People will be snobby about him and maybe it would be a bit Rickie Lambert, but I like Scott Dann. I’ll be honest, his winner against us last month reminded me of his existence but he’d have cost loads less than the likes of Lovren. Is he really any more out of his depth on the deck than what Skrtel or Kolo are? He’s younger and generally seems willing and able to head it away occasionally.
Anything that stops shit mings becoming bogey players for us just by putting themselves about. Deeney is a few more games like that against us from getting the Benteke treatment and getting signed for all kinds. Saying that Carroll only had to play us the once.
Scott Dann, interesting option. And I have to agree, I would like this type of player for us (which we desperately need) as compared to some fancy dribbling and short-passing 30mil guy.
Papa?
Papadopoulis?
How much would it cost to buy Stoke’s first choice keeper and back 4, as a job lot? Probably not a great deal, if we threw Benteke their way. That’s where he’s going to end up eventually, anyway.
Glan Johnson? Free…last summer : -)
Haha, I forgot about him!
Proof that every competent defender completely loses the ability to do his job when he puts on our shirt!
Clyne is doing fine so far though. Our most consistent and reliable defender this season (in fact the only defender we have at the moment who does not make me near heart attacks)
He’s so far removed from the last couple of years of Glen Johnson that I love him; a pacier, more athletic Arbeloa/Finnan. That position is boxed for years to come if one of the young lads matures as adequate enough cover if Clyne’s ever knackered or god forbid injured.
Be interesting to see what nick Flanagan’s in when he’s finally back in the fold. I reckon he might have actual, literal rust on him.
Tom M; I am not sure about how Flenno would come back and perform for us. But the other day Sakho was pretty rusty though…kept falling… Hope he improves against Leicester… and really hope Flenno comes back to the 2013/14 level soon. He will be a very good cover for both full back roles for sure. (may even be ahead of Moreno; if JK decides to play this right footer at the left side).
Our own Gomez can be trained to be a top centre half. How about Wisdom? He had his fair share of learning in the lower league, and he was playing regularly for Norwich till he got injured before MU match.
Apart from those two, I did not see any academy youngsters coming up to take over the centre half positions. Carra learned his trade in defensive midfield before Houllier let him play at full back role (both left and right), and by the time Rafa the genius decided that he was ready to partner Sami in the middle, he had already clocked hundreds of games for the first team by then.
Currently among the younger players, I see only Gomez and possibly Wisdom as the possibilities, no one else for the spine position. (Flanno, Randall, Smith, etc are all full backs, not centre backs, unfortunately).
Another option is to bring in some real ‘fighter’ or ‘dog of war’ type of defender from lower league to utilize for 10 games a season against WestBrom, Watford, Wimbledon, whatever).
Just a thought, how will Barca play against Watford or WestBrom? with Machareno at the back…How did some teams without tough defenders beat Drogba/Chelsea without being bullied throughout the match?
Did any teams beat Chelsea when Drogba was at his best without tough CBs and without being bullied? I’m sure it happened, but that’s a short list.
Yeah if Drogba was happy with any given Chelsea manager he could just choose to be unplayable, especially when he wasn’t just hitting the deck constantly. You couldn’t really kick him or Henry out of it. Helps that they were in great sides.
The thing is, Benteke has all the attributes to be our Drogba, he just doesn’t seem to have the attitude (yet).
Really really hope that Big Ben would come good, starting from Leicester game!!!!
We go again haha (as a football fan, we can instill new hope every new match!!!).
From what I have seen from some of the recent young players near the first team, they all seem a bit over coached, nice and a bit boring.
I like Flanagan though.
In Carra’s first game at Anfield he clattered into Andy Townsend. Gerrard was the same.
Where are these type of players?
Are they all being over coached from the age of five into being robots?
Anyway I hope Klopp can change LFC.
Because they are a bit dull at the moment.
Think Flanagan debuted under Kenny against City when we battered them with Suarez, Kuyt and Carroll upfront. He absolutely pelted it through either Barry or possibly even Milner and it was just great.
Deeney has sullied himself there. Whatever sullied means. He, Ighalo, the rest of the Watford team deserve all kudos; deserved the win and possibly a bigger win. But to say Skrtel went off because he ‘didn’t fancy it’, when he’s actually facing a six week layoff with his hamstring, is insulting. Hamstring’s a hamstring.
Granted, Skrtel was shite anyway.
Sure Martin will be so offended he’ll put Deeney to bed next time.
Ho hum.
Wow. Brilliant article. Should be sent straight to Klopp’s inbox. And Henry’s. And the other guy. Yes, Ayre.
A bit tongue in cheek but with a slight bit of seriousness, they could send our centre halves on a commando training course where they have to survive on cooking rats and whatever else they have endure. That would sort the men from the boys.
Klops got previous here. He sent a team to a remote Swedish island with no food to bond for a week.
Can’t help but think we’re all over-reacting here. After those great City/Chelski/Southampton games, it was all smiles, Klopp was a genius, the players were doing well and we were excited by the depth of the squad. Now, after a few crappy performances, Klopp’s clueless, the players are pretty much all worthless and don’t have the stomach for the fight. It seems like only nine or so months ago that we were pretty happy with how Skrtel was playing and TAW fellas were suggesting (quite rightly) that he was having his best period at the club.
I hated watching Sunday’s game as much as any fan but surely we need to recognize some of these opinions are born out of deep disappointment and might easily change with a decent game or two. That said, I’d be thrilled if we could find a couple of first rate center backs (tattoos optional).
Couldn’t agree more mate. I will just add though, that the question of whether we are tough enough may be posh to the casual observer, but those of us who have been watching since the Brodge came in can attest that we have lost an edge when it comes to the physical side of the game. Stevie began taming his game sometime in the latter portion of the Benitez era, and huge portions of it left with Masch and Hyppia, unfortunately the last bell for us out matching a team in a physical match-up left with Carra.
apologies… before the brodge era.
The defence will sort itself out when we get rid of the dog shit keeper(s). Have someone who is commanding in nets and the defence don’t have to worry about what’s going on behind them – they can concentrate on being a back four and working together. Why we ever let Reina go, I don’t know. Teach him a lesson and drop him, but keep him on the books.
The other problem is we’ve had to chop and change at the back too many times this season. We need a settled back four. Sakho shouldn’t really have played – but he had to because of Lovren’s injury and Kolo aghainst Deeney/Ighalo would have been suicide.
Flanno will make a massive difference to the defence when he returns. And Gomez WILL be a boss centre half in a few years time – he needs the experience Carra had at full backs before moving into the centre.
Pity that we sold Martin Kelly I think he would slot in right now, other option is Shawcross don’t see him mentioned here though Stoke may be hard to deal with
Yeah. Kelly is doing fine for Palace now. When we sold him, we were into tiki taka crab… Having said that, I am not sure if Kelly would be able to play as centre back role long term for us. Maybe at right back for some physical games like Watford and Westbrom,
Troy Deeney!!!! I remember a certain Clinton Morrison spouting similar shite prior to a League Cup Semi-Final….disconcerting that a Manager of Klopp’s experience hasn’t yet experienced a team like Watford as some are suggesting.
Bundesliga isn’t all Bayern Munich tippy-tappy. Normal service will resume and Leicester etc, will soon start dropping down the League…..concerned he wasn’t able to collect any points against Newcastle, Palace, Watford as a poor as the squad is, it should be capable of at least securing a point against them sides….
Am I alone in thinking that it is completely mental that FSG refused to sanction any targets above 24-years-old? I know I’m a bit old fashioned, but i’d think that experience is a vital part of defending at the elite level.
It seems that FSG preferred to spend big on a defender, but only on the condition that we wouldn’t need to sign another one for many years (and wages were not an issue). Hence, Sakho and Lovren.
Both youngsters are known for the exuberance in defense, for good or ill. What they lack in composure, they make up for in enthusiasm and stepovers. But considering our perpetual nervousness in the back, perhaps solidity would have been better than the spectacular.
Looking at Rodgers’ targets shot down by the committee – Williams, Vorm, Bertrand – they wouldn’t be setting the world alight, but perhaps they would have served us better. Bertrand made Team of the Season (Moreno, not so much), Vorm made infinitely more sense as a sweeper-keeper, and Williams is a solid organizer. With Williams and Vorm already having an understanding from Swansea, it certainly couldn’t have been worse than the disconnect we’ve witnessed for over 2 years now.
Throw in Flanagan and youthful Papadapolous, and perhaps Rodgers would have an altogether different reputation. Considering we went 22 games last season with 12 clean sheets and just one loss before Sakho was injured for the season, perhaps that is not such a far-fetched possibility. Especially when you consider we had the 5th best defense in Rodgers’ first season (better than Stoke, mind).
Klopp has his hands full. Sakho is my favorite player since Suarez left, but he has missed nearly 50 matches for us already – 70 missed if you add his PSG career – and that is a real dilemma. Another Sturridge: brilliant, but brittle. Skrtel was brilliant and looked great in a three, but it’s diminishing returns. Lovren could be a good defender, but wants to be a great one. Which makes him terrible.
I like the sounds around Joel Matip, but honestly I haven’t the foggiest. Which makes him brilliant. But, honestly, it is a decision that could make or break Klopp’s era. He needs to get it right. I’m a believer, just a slightly nervous one.
JK will definitely fix the Spine of the team soon for sure…starting with a new keeper. I hope Sakho would be good enough to stay fit and lead as our organizer from the back, and as part of the spine. I noticed a game or two when Sakho-Lovren started, we did quite ok too. That combination may well be for the longer term, I don’t know.
As much as I love Lucas’ loyalty and his 8/10 games i.e. against Arsenal this season, and so on, I am sure JK would be looking for an upgrade for that position. Porto William Cavalho would be an excellent signing. Can, I don’t think, is a safe option at the moment and I don’t think he reads the game that well yet (I hope he would grow into that, since he is still very young despite the size).
Skrtel had his flaws and Lovren is only now coming good but we can debate what exactly “fight” is but I’m not sure what else those two have to do to show they bleed red and much like Lucas Skrtel has shrugged off the stick they received to stay a red and not care about being overlooked or being slagged off to give everything for the Crest. Whatever Skrtels flaws he’s a big game player. Maybe he feeds off the hate, Idk but he’s far from rubbish. Anyone who doubts Lovren’s commitment is obviously an idiot. The man literally bled red and on his return showed no fear. Flawed? Sure. But I think it’s a bit of a case of a few fans blinkered perceptions that deny Skrtel and Lovren the respect they deserve and errors be damned.
Sorry skrtel has his flaws.