IN the wake of Watford 3 Liverpool 0, Neil Atkinson is joined by Gareth Roberts and Melissa Reddy to pick the bones out of another disappointing defeat.
Neil and Robbo have a heated argument about the character, or lack of, in the team and how much it’s contributing to Liverpool’s poor form.
They then let Melissa talk about how the team ideally should be setting up, and how Klopp can get more out of what he’s got.
Finally they all try and map a way forward for Liverpool for the upcoming fixtures.
You’re both absolutely correct on this. It’d be ludicrous to say that Liverpool’s players looked interested yesterday. It was disgraceful. My view is, even if the tactics weren’t working you have to show more than that, surely. There’s no excuse for that attitude.
I had a thought recently that I wasn’t going to share because I wondered if it appeared stereotypical and also because I can’t fully conceptualise what the thought was. I was thinking about my lad and his mates. They’re a group who play in the same team on Saturday, Sunday and for the school. So, footy lads is my point. They all wear skinny jeans though. They all have quiffs or whatever they’re called these days and they’re all really nice lads. When I was their age I hung around with the football team but they weren’t nice. We were horrible little bastards both on and off the pitch. I look at players today and it seems lads all over the world are what I can only describe as more effeminate.
I definitely think it’s a good thing and evolutionary progress but I look at the good players in the Prem and it’s how it appears. It seems the older lads or the tougher ones end up in the bottom half of the league in defence for Stoke or West Brom and the like. It’s not just age. Coutinho and Lallana will never be tough. They’re the style of player we’re seeing more and more now.
Neil’s right, no top club has strong characters. I thought the same thing recently. I just wonder are we seeing a change in society. Do Souness’s still exist? There’s no call for a hard man either in society (it’s not accepted by law as it was 15 years ago) or on the pitch (red cards are more prevalent now).
So, difficult to get my point across but I wonder is society changing. Kids born in 1990 didn’t have to be tough. Society has improved a lot. Are hard men becoming extinct? I think there’s a link between hard and confident on the pitch. Has football’s move towards a non contact sport, especially on the continent led to a different type of player. Are the top clubs struggling because we’re in the middle of a transition where the best players are small, nimble and wear skinny jeans and the old style big tough lads are now in the bottom half and surplus to. I doubt it. It was just something that popped into my mind.
Interesting perspective. Society may be less hard, but it’s dirtier. Players like Souness, and before him the likes of Tommy Smith, or Dave Mackay and their ilk, were hard but not shirt pullers (at least I don’t recall them being so). These days there is more embracing in the penalty areas on matchdays than in most marital beds. I find the whole thing repellent, to be honest. And whatever became of ‘obstruction’? Shielding the ball, my arse.
You know what mate. I was just watching Arsenal City and near the end Toure got penalised for pulling down the player shielding him (rather than the ball) and it crossed my mind what an unclear and unfair rule it is.
That’s the thing mate, it’s always been the way. If you can’t beat someone by strength you have to beat them with brains. Nothing new there. It’s what we’re seeing on the pitch. That’s what I loved about Suarez. He was an expert in the dark arts. A little magician. One of them Kevin, if it goes against you it’s a disgrace but if it goes for you then, well, it’s part of the game innit.
It’s all changed mate. Ok, I’m polarising for effect because the ref didn’t see it but do you remember when Souness knocked that bloke out and broke his jaw. Didn’t even get a yellow. Then Markovic against Basel and the red he got. I’m alright with this new style of player I perceive but it takes the piss when they end up in your goal. We need a Souness character for a keeper.
A lot of that has merit Robin,
The death of street football has to be an influencer in this along with the bloody Playstation etc.
Valid points from both sides, thanks for the discussion and opinions.
Don’t know whether it’s the awful performance and result that’s done it but that maybe the best podcast you’ve ever done. Neil just coming out and saying Skrtel needs fucking off was a personal highlight.
(Another thing he does that pisses me off is when he stoops down defending corners. As if he’s like preparing to spring for a big jump or something when he, we and the opposition all know that he’s getting nowhere near it. He’s working the head and after years it doesn’t wash anymore. Straighten your back and look to compete for the ball or go back to Zenit like Agger went back to Brondby.)
Realy enjoyed that,real emotion best taw in a while
Great pod, but I’m still struggling to see what Neil’s point is. I thought it was that he thinks the character thing is either overstated or just something we ascribe to winning footballers post facto, but then he mentions that Utd team of the 90s and describes them as “ballsy”, which is just a synonym for characterful. Does Neil think it’s *a thing* or not?
I said after the West Brown game that I think we are a soft touch, and I saw nothing to change my mind after the Watford debacle. Anyone can show character when it’s all to play for or the team is doing well; I’m looking for character in adversity. This, specifically, is where we are found wanting most. I think the age point raised my Melissa is a good shout and may be a contributory factor, but as things stand we are not a team that does well when things go against us. When Klopp bemoans not individual mistakes but the team’s reaction to those mistakes, what is he referencing if not character?
Also, in the last two games we’ve had a player done that should have resulted in a straight red, and conceded a goal that shouldn’t have stood, and nary a word was had with the ref on both occasions. What in the name of jumping Jesus is that all about? Utd and Chelsea have their own problems right now, but both clubs would probably be facing charges for not controlling their players if that had been them.
Let’s get some nark back into this team. If the current crop cannot summon it, buy some players who can. There’s only one brand of football that we are capable of excelling at right now – and when we’re good we can be very good – but that’s not sufficient to win anything in this league.
Things have come to a pretty pass when you can say that we’d have been better off with Lee Cattermole in midfield on Sunday and only be half-joking.
Americans have a great term for players of a certain disposition. They call them “tone setters”. Players who dictate the game physically and vocally.Can’t think of anyone in our squad that even comes close to that description sadly.
With you there David, I was thinking the same as Atko was giving it to Robbo, and then again when he appeared to contradict himself with the Man U reference. Btw that was a great shout and I agreed totally with the sentiment.
In many ways TAW and the Reds are in a similar place atm. Recently the shows have been a little middle class and sterile so it was great to hear some aggression with some F’in and J’in from the lads. As per the shows content, we defo need some more aggro on the pitch. And as for Skrtel, he’s been a wuss for years and proved as much when he got a crack on the cheek in 08/09 I think it was. It took him a good 2 seasons to put it behind him and to get on with it ffs! Get rid ive been saying it for years. The same goes for Lucas, yes he’s become better in recent seasons but fuck me he’s had more patience and more chances than any other player in the Clubs history. He concedes stupid fouls in the worst of positions because he neither reads the game properly or is is quick enough. I can never recall a tackle when he’s tackled his man and hurt him with/without giving away a foul. Hard players who properly put their foot in get the crowd off their seats and change games.
So great show but U think both the lads were in the same corner although as I said earlier, at times Atko appeared to be giving it to Robbo. Just saying.
Firmly on the side of Neil for this one.
This whole “character, leadership, narc” stuff is, in my judgment, much ado about nothing, and it is disprovable. It’s always after the fact and always true. If the team wins, everyone showed great character, if the team comes back from being a couple of goals down, even if we only draw, “we showed great character”, if we fail to come back and get a result, “we didn’t show enough character”.
When people whine to the referee (e.g. Can) people complain that he should be doing something more productive (only because the result didn’t improve or go our way). Had we scored a goal early in the 2nd half, when we had a couple of good chances, people would probably be talking up Can’s “needle” and “fight”.
When Ake fouled Bogdan for their first goal, people complained that no one got immediately into the ref’s ear . . . as if that would accomplish anything. “But, you may get the next one . . .”. Well, you didn’t think of that when you criticized Can and Henderson complaining to the referee, did ya?
A whole lot of “awful and abject” bandied about in shows/podcasts that follow a defeat. Usually accompanied by talk about “lack of character” and “lack of leaders”.
In my humble opinion, until and unless you can quantify it and measure it, and are able to make an empirically disprovable prediction as to its effects, then you should probably not consider it as a ’cause’ OR ‘outcome’.
Perhaps Melissa can ask Klopp next time what HE meant by “play easy football”. Perhaps it’s a German expression that doesn’t quite translate unproblematically. There are a few of those. We might as well find out what Klopp’s intended meaning was.
Finally, if people are going to make claims about which current LFC players, young or veteran, they would NOT accuse of “lacking” or “not showing character”, they should go on record (and be held to their statements) as to which of the current LFC players they WOULD accuse of lacking or not showing character.
it is _not_ disprovable*
Wouldn’t deny that there is a degree of post facto rationalisation when the character label is sometimes applied, but that hardly makes it unique. Poor performances are turned into good by results and vice versa. So to take your point about if we had scored in the second half, that wouldn’t only colour perceptions about real or imagined character but also about performance as a whole. That’s the way it goes. This is nothing more than a statement of obvious fact that goals and results change our view of events and the elements that comprise them, including whether players have shown character. I don’t think you’ve disproved what you think you have.
A couple of years ago Stoke and the Watfords of this world would look forward to playing Arsenal more than they would any of the other top 6. There’s a reason for that. When you say you would like a certain person in the trenches with you, what are you referencing if not character? More to the point, when Klopp repeatedly states that he is less concerned with individual mistakes than he is the team’s collective reaction to those mistakes, what do you think he is referencing is not character?
I can’t “quantify” how much I love my wife or indeed my club,but that doesn’t mean it isn’t *a thing*.
BTW, there’s a difference between pointless whining in the ref’s ear and genuine responses to perceived wrongs. The respective refs knew there was a case to be answered on the Lovren tackle and the Ake goal, irrespective of the fact that any complaints from LFC players would likely have no direct effect on those decisions, but it does sow seeds of doubt in the mind of any sentient being and in the case of the WBA match make it more likely that further roughhouse treatment would be stamped on. This is a million miles away from venting at a linesman when every man and his dog knows you were offside.
If one uses “character” or any other broad and usually vague term as a shorthand for a series of much more narrow and precise items, then, so long as the other folks in the conversation, real or metaphorical, understand it the same way, then everything is cool.
“I can’t “quantify” how much I love my wife or indeed my club,but that doesn’t mean it isn’t *a thing*.”
But psychologists, social psychologists, marriage and family therapists and counselors, and sociologists have developed measures, specify types, dimensions, facets of “love” and have researched their associations with other important and relevant ‘performance’ measures.
This is how it works, and how it ought to work. Vague, imprecise terms, with unclear and shifting referents are only good for ‘coffee-shop’ or ‘pub’ conversations. Football managers and folks in charge of transfers (hopefully) do not rely on such terms. Nor do competent counselors and therapists, or managers in any other field of cooperative endeavor.
It’s a good job Klopp comes with such an impressive CV. Otherwise, he would already be getting ridiculed by the press and some of the fans.
The players aren’t responding to him and he looks at a loss how to explain why.
Christian Gross would have found life a lot easier at Spurs, if he already had those years at Basel behind him.
Klopp has plenty of respect in the bank, but only a finite amount should defeats keep coming.
His meandering and rather shambolic responses to reasonable press questions will only be put up with for so long.
We’re still utter shite.
The only central defenders I would keep from the current crop is Sakho and Gomez. The rest should be fazed out.
I love Kolo but can’t believe he was given another year, Lovren should be sold and Skrtel possibly given the role as 3rd/4th choice centreback.
We need to bring in a quality defender to play alongside Sakho who can consistently perform at least at 7/10 every game.
I don’t know if Matip or Subotic is this man but we certainly should be looking at them if Klopp likes them.
When Rafa assembled his team of 07 onwards I remember him frequently talking about having players that are leaders and winners. Naturally these are guys with a winning mentality and deep enough character to come back from set backs.
I’m thinking of Reina, Carra, Hypia, Gerrard, Alonso, Masch, Kuyt, Gerrard, Torres. He then went on to bring in the likes of Maxi too.
A lot of these players were either captains of their international teams or ex captains of their club teams.
At the min we don’t have anyone bar Sakho and possibly Hendo who would match up with any of these guys. Lallana was capt at Southampton but on his performances in a red shirt I don’t know how.
There was talk of not enough players in the 24-28 age bracket.
Mignolet 27
Henderson 25
Clyne 24
Lovren 26
Sakho 25
Lallana 27
Benteke 25
Allen 25
Bogdan 28
Firmino 24
I’ll admit I may have misheard but not sure I did.
I’ve said before that Ings has all the ingredients of a Liverpool player, and his injury was a real
blow. He has fight in him, and the balls to put himself about. The only one we have right now, I think.
Guys Henderson is 25 getting on 26 & we have a load on players in the 24-28 age bracket… More than most teams.
Dear oh dear. Hope there were no black eyes after this. I was moved to a sense of gentlemanly propriety for poor Melissa :-)
Character, character, character. Well, I guess you’d want to see our players surrounding the ref after the Bogdan and Lovren incidents. What’s more curious is how we’ve fallen off a cliff. We were showing plenty of character a few weeks ago.
I’ve a feeling the loss of character is intimately related to the cult of the manager. Coaching has become so structured and tactics and players so micro-managed that they are less likely to solve problems on the pitch themselves. Consider the Brucie story on And Could He Play. Consider the roles of Liverpool’s great midfielders: they were all given a licence to play as they saw fit and thus to solve problems on the pitch. Today you’d half expect them to turn to the manager, a trend that reached a nadir last season when the manager clearly felt he had to change games from the touchline.
Empower the players and you’ll see a bit of character. This applies to all walks of life, not just football, as workers are infantilised, de-skilled and micro-managed.
I actually think the Character point, simple as it is, is actually The Point.
I’m surprised no one mentioned the difference in Arsenal these past few years, which is precisely an influx of Character. Alexis Sanchez grew up without a pair of boots and just won his country it’s first Copa America. Compare him to Firmino: similar price, 2x player but 5 character.
Aaron Ramsey had his leg broken, I saw it live. Worst I’d seen. Comes back and wins FA Cups and takes Wales to the Euros. Per Metesacker us literally the slowest defender in the world’s fastest league. How does he get by? Pure character. Petr Cech? Steady Character.
On Man City, Kompany is their Tone Setter. 7 Clean Sheets in his 8 games. Appalling without him.
Character is a big part of what’s going on this year, I think.
As the late, great Joe Fagan once almost said ‘is he a fucking winner? Buy me a fucking winner.’