IT’S a bit of a running theme at the minute that you have to pick sides in a debate about Liverpool players.
Let’s take Andy Robertson as an example, since Alberto Moreno got injured about six weeks ago he’s been very good and gone a long way to making that position his own, yet instead of people just talking about how promising he looks people seem to have to throw a sledge towards Moreno in.
It seems that there’s a law I’m not aware of that says “well, I hope this is the last we see of Moreno” to be added on to the end of any praise of Robertson. I find it a bit confusing. Moreno was almost faultless before he got injured and he too looked a good option at full back. Instead of Robertson “seeing the end of Moreno” it would be nice if we were able to use two competent left backs, which both are.
After that you also have the Jordan Henderson and Emre Can battle. If you say Can had a poor game, or did something wrong, you’re told within a matter of minutes that Henderson is shit like it gets Can off the hook for turning like the QEII. You don’t have to take a side; you don’t have to think that if one is really good that the other one is rubbish or should be hated.
But bizarrely people have now decided to start a Loris Karius v Simon Mignolet one. A lot of people don’t like Karius, that’s absolutely fine, if you think he’s crap I’m not here to tell you that you’re wrong. Personally, I don’t really think I know how good he is and I don’t really get how people can be so convinced by their belief that he isn’t. I haven’t been overly impressed so far, in all honesty, but a run of 10 games and then sporadic appearances every few weeks just isn’t enough for me as a gauge.
We all know the story, he replaced Mignolet in mid September of last season, dropped a huge bollock against Bournemouth, put a goalkick out for a corner against Sunderland the week before, and Mignolet was back in not long after. In some people’s eyes that seems to be enough, a 10-game spell in which we won six, drew three and lost one where he cost us, at most, a point.
Since then he’s played 16 games of which two of them were back-to-back Premier League games and I’ve seen him have good games like Sevilla away, Southampton away in the League Cup last season, and West Brom at home in December.
I’ve seen him have bad games like Sunday where he should have done much better for Leroy Sane’s shot and also Spartak Moscow away where he didn’t seem to see the ball go past him from a freekick.
I’ve also seen him have completely indifferent games like the two games against Plymouth Argyle and two against Maribor. So of the 16 games, you’re completely and utterly discounting a quarter of these because they were basically pointless.
After that there are games like Arsenal in August where he didn’t face a shot but messed about with the ball at his feet and wound people up. That didn’t look great, but to be fair he seemed to learn from that as he’s been far happier to empty it since then, while there are also games like Leicester where he’s got no chance for the goal after which there aren’t any meaningful shots for him to showcase anything positive, but he’s also played a huge part in Liverpool scoring.
To bring it round to the ridiculous X v Y argument, Liverpool scored a goal against Leicester that simply wouldn’t have happened had Simon Mignolet been in goal that day. If people want to talk about him potentially costing us over the course of the rest of the season, then it’s good to know that he’s already got more in the positive column than the negative.
This is why I’d quite like to see him get a run. I want to know if he’s any good. If it turns out that Karius is worse than Mignolet then that’s absolutely fine with me. But persisting with Mignolet simply isn’t an option any longer, we’re three and a half weeks removed from what appears to have been the final straw — a ball being hit straight at him from 30 yards and going in. It didn’t swerve, it didn’t move, it didn’t do anything bar go in a straight line.
He doesn’t have any redeeming qualities of note, I don’t know what someone would say he’s actually good at. It’s like that job interview question of “sell me this pen”. How would you sell Mignolet if you were standing on a market stall harassing passers by?
He doesn’t command his area, he can’t kick a ball very well, he doesn’t sweep and allow a defence to play a high line, and if he isn’t going to save things like that Granit Xhaka attempt at Arsenal then you can’t even argue that he’s a good shot stopper that goes some way to making up for these deficiencies.
While this doesn’t tell a huge story, Manchester United have given up 96 shots on target this season and Liverpool 67. One has conceded 16 and one has conceded 28. I suspect you don’t need me to tell you which is which.
As a percentage 16 per cent of Man United’s shots on target conceded end up as goals, our number is 42 per cent. This is an incredibly basic metric and has huge holes in it but on a base level it isn’t indicating that Mignolet is a good shot stopper.
The first action of some would be to say something negative about Karius. Why? Does it make Mignolet a better goalkeeper? No it doesn’t, and it definitely doesn’t give us any alternative.
Yes, it is entirely possible that he’s absolutely dreadful and that giving him a go is the wrong option in the long term, I’m happy to concede that but at the minute it looks like we have three options as alternatives to Mignolet:
1. Loris Karius
2. Danny Ward
3. Buy a new goalkeeper
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At the minute you can discount option three as it’s unlikely that a club is going to sell someone good enough to be in goal for Liverpool in January because why would they weaken their own side mid season? That leaves Karius or Ward.
While I don’t really get why people rate Ward so highly based on what he’s actually done in his career to date, I’m fine with having a look at either but if the manager says that that is the way he wants to go then I’m happy to back him. Surely we’ve seen enough vindication of decisions he’s made in the last year or so to trust him?
The not panicking and buying a centre back, any centre back, just a lad who can play centre back, and the sensible rotation even if the results weren’t 100 per cent perfect. Big decisions vindicated. Big decisions that people found issues with vindicated. Why can’t this be another one?
This situation reminds me a little bit of David James and Brad Friedel. James was the established number one goalkeeper, everyone knew we needed better, we brought Friedel in, gave him very limited opportunities and then decided he wasn’t good enough, took him out, put him back in, took him back out again and sold him.
Friedel went on to be one of the best goalkeepers seen in England since the turn of the millennium while Liverpool played Sander Westerveld for two years.
Until I see Karius a bit more, I’ll have a nagging thought in my mind that he might be Friedel to Mignolet’s James. And if it turns out that he’s more Chris Kirkland to Mignolet’s Jerzy Dudek then so be it. After four and a half years, in which I’ve defended Mignolet more than the average person, I’ve reached the end of my tether with him.
If Karius does turn out to be Kirkland as opposed to Friedel then fine, but please, please don’t turn it into an argument that displays Mignolet in a positive light. We’ve had four and a half years of his nonsense, time to move on.
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Maybe Virgil’s powers of organisation will work on Karius more than Mignolet. Sometimes listening to respected pundits talk about Liverpool they seem lazy ie”Liverpools well known defensive problems” when we’ve had good form at the back. Now they are all saying that “Liverpool need a new keeper” and I’m willing these talking heads to be wrong with Karius ( with a run, and with VVD)
“listening to respected pundits” – just spilled my coffee. That was a good one! TAW is ten times above any of these gleeful and grumpy old men, none whom was ever a top manager.
The better ones are Stevie G., Gary Lineker, Liam Rosenior and (my apologies) Phil Neville and worst are Andy Gray, Carra (again my apologies), Roy Keane. Shout out to John Barnes, he was sensational as a guest!
I think we’d like to see Danny Ward because the team he played for were promoted to the Premier League. They still want him but for some reason Klopp didn’t want him to go back.
So its obvious he is good enough for the EPL.
Second if we roll with what we have then I think Klopp absolutely has to fire John Achterberg. We need a new goalkeeper coach, and if I had to guess he’ll fire him in the Summer.
I actually wish we didn’t have two keepers at such apparently similar levels. I don’t think its helped either of them to improve either their skill or their confidence.
At this point I’d chuck the gloves to Danny Ward and say, “Show us what you’ve got, lad, the gig’s yours ’til May!’
Then we see if we need to break the bank again in summer for a keeper. Clearly neither LK or SM are of the standard that we need. That LFC v MUFC ‘shots on target to goals conceded’ stat is the killer. I can’t see how anyone can argue about it, unless a large number were blocked by Munts defenders.
Even though Karius was clumsy against City, he was voted the best among his peers by German players. So, I’d give him the benefit of the doubt. (As reminder: Germany produced keepers like Maier, Schuhmacher, Kahn and Neuer.)
Even though I understand Migs reaction now and also acknowledge he had an upturn in form, Karius has to be better than him. Now he got until the end of the season to prove himself. Then we’ll all know whether he is just a local hero of Mainz or fit and ready for the big stage.
Moreno is consistent in making major mistakes game after game, hence the signing of Robertson. And niether Karius or Mignolet are good enough for Liverpool FC. Why argue otherwise?
Where does he argue otherwise?
On Moreno – you forgot the bit about where until he was injured this season after playing in every game, he was our most consistent ( and consistently good) defender… Credit where credit is due.
This was very good, Phil. My biggest concern with Karius is his self-confidence because it appears to be low at the moment- I know how supporters can help with that but I’m not sure we will. Ultimately his self-belief will improve with good performances but it looks to be a vicious cycle right now. Maybe he can fake it for the next few months – watch clips of De Gea and mimic that smugness and arrogance? Good luck to him, I want nothing more than for him to be successful.
And I absolutely hate that Mignolet spoke to the press about the whole thing. I haven’t read anywhere if Karius is the CL keeper as well now so I wonder if the plan is that Mignolet takes over that role.
It’s weird seeing people say that they think Karius should have a run in the team despite him being poor in pretty much every game he has played. No one would look at a striker (or a player in any other position, for that matter) who can’t do the basics and say “It’s time to give him a run in the team!” It’s also not necessarily the case that Klopp is right about Danny Ward because “he sees him in training.” He saw Moreno and Robertson in training for months and he kept playing Moreno, despite the fact that Robertson was better every time he played. Managers have blind spots. This appears to be one of Klopp’s.
Oh, and I keep seeing people say that Karius was voted “second best goalie in the Bundesliga,” which isn’t the case at all. He was voted joint third best, alongside Ron-Robert Zieler, who couldn’t get a game at Leicester.
In truth, we probably need a better goalie than any of the three we have at the moment, but of that three it is Ward who most deserves his chance.
blind spot – a term used generally when someone doesn’t agree with the manager and are convinced they know best.
Moreno had a quality start to the season. You wouldn’t drop a player that’s impressing during matches and, i imagine, training too, even if his understudy is also looking pretty decent. There’s also the case that Robertson had just joined and it’s quite as up to speed tactically as Moreno. Just be glad we finally have two in-form left backs.
I find this Karius backlash from the City game utterly ridiculous. He let in one goal that ok maybe a De Gea or a Courtois saves, but it’s hardly a howler – It was a rocket of a shot from a few yards out! Find it mad how he got more criticism for that than the defenders (particularly Gomez) who let Sane get into that position in the first place.
Goalkeepers lack match-sharpness just as much as outfield players when they don’t get a run of games. With a bit of a run you might find he’ll be caught on his heels a lot less. Maybe his shot-stopping isn’t as great as Mignolets – but the command of his defence, distribution, and confidence on crosses is far superior (which are arguably just as important in the modern game).
Excellent points, Alex. We should really be very happy to end up with two great left backs all of a sudden!!!
The bottom line is that neither of them are good enough. IMHO it is time to buy a new ‘keeper or give Ward an opportunity.
Mignolet is an embarrassment and Karius is swiftly becoming the same. Where would we be with a half decent custodian?
Read the article and ok see the points which have been made as to playing time. I also thought that Mignolet was abt to come good the 2nd half of last season, but again he doesnt impress me one bit.
So imo tbh, both Goalkeepers are not up to standard and one of them to keep for a pkace as 2nd choice and to buy a quality new goalkeeper I think is the best way forward.
Klopp was trying to get rid of Minolet in order to accomodate NWC keeper so that Karius will deputise.
I am convinced Klopp has deliberately waited to restore Karius into the #1 position until signing Virgil. VVD will bring organisation, calmness and confidence to the defence, while Karius allows the back four to play a high line and defend on the front foot, aka Klopp Football.
Karius absolutely needs to prove he can stop the ball going in the goal (under the unique pressure of playing for Liverpool) but he is the right choice right now for Klopp’s Liverpool. I hope Karius has a great 4 months behind what is actually a decent defence that concedes very few chances per game. Robertson, Gomez and Lovren have largely been very good. Matip was much better against City. Klavan heroic though I don’t expect we will see him too much now. All to be led by the hugely impressive VVD, surely this is the time to show all those lazy clichéd pundits that Liverpool can defend as well as score boat loads of wonderful goals.
Look like you really to get sided on Karius but date not do it too obvious. C’mon. Be a man.
Anyway after all I think our problem lies on our goalkeeper coach. Our goalkeeper came here and becomes shite and worse as time went by.
“But bizarrely people have now decided to start a Loris Karius v Simon Mignolet one”
and you end up caning Mignolet to justify playing Karius…..bizarre
Well no, I don’t. I point out Mignolet’s shortcomings and then say there are 3 alternatives and I’m fine with all of them being explored.
Well, yeah you do…
(“It’s a bit of a running theme at the minute that you have to pick sides in a debate about Liverpool players.”
Then regarding criticism of Karius
“But persisting with Mignolet simply isn’t an option any longer,”
“He doesn’t have any redeeming qualities of note” etc.)
See the bit where I said there were 3 alternatives.
There’s a difference between being Pro Karius and Pro Karius because he isn’t Mignolet. It isn’t about being on Karius’ side it’s about not being on Mignolet’s.
Fair point!
so while you make some great points in why we should not compare Karius to Mignolet, you fail to. adress the obvious. Karius, much like Mignolet does not have the confidence of our back 4. why should they trust either goalie. Mignolet cost the league title whith his stupidity, Karius has had enough of a chance to show that he is not good enough to win us a title. THIS IS ANFIELD!!!! We deserve nothing but the very best,not average or learning or trying hard. THE BEST. OUR GOALIES ARE BOTH SHIT.
Excellent article , how can all these negative comments about LK be made when he has had so few games to show his abilities. He may turn out to be average BUT equally may be brilliant. Have all the armchair critics forgotten how much stick was given to De Gea when he first arrived . Give the lad a chance to prove himself
Anyone else think the manager may have switched the keepers roles around (1 for league, 1 for cups) for Mignolet’s penalty saving ability now that we’re through to later stages?
Interesting theory, Alex.
That kind of subtlety from Klopp, Buvac and Krawietz shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand.
Big Si’s comments in the Belgian press could undermine this possibility though. Sounded like he was issuing a come get me. Time will tell.
I thought Phil was clear enough in his opinion that Mignolet has run his course for management and fans alike as first choice keeper.
A series of games for the Handsome Hologram (nod to Walter), seems to be the decision.
And for whatever reason Ward is either not ready or deemed not good enough. If we’ve learned anything about Klopp at all, it’s that his man-management is peerless. He hasn’t done this lightly after backing Simon to the hilt repeatedly. I don’t think given our current momentum Klopp is going to start tinkering with things because he wants all of his signings to be sucessful. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that this is happening in the aftermath of the VVD signing. Karius enables a much higher defensive line, compressing the pitch as a result, and his distribution is far quicker(perhaps too quick on occasion). He’s also better with the ball at his feet. Klopp bought this keeper presumably after identifying the attributes he wanted in a sweeper-keeper.
However I’m not at all convinced by him yet. His footwork seems, to me at least, poor and flat footed. He also appears to decide far too readily that -” I can’t get to that”, and not even diving.
But once again we need to trust in Klopp and his cohort’s judgement. Like Phil, I believe that a run of starts will soon tell us if he is good enough or Klopp’s first transfer fuckup as LFC manager. And with half of the transfer window left perhaps we shouldn’t rule out the unlikely brand new keeper possibility, in conjunction with The Mig getting on his bike.
For Crying Out Loud.
I’ve just read Danny Morgan’s piece on Deggsy, after posting.
Great Minds and all that !!
Really?
And exactly what were you doing to Mignolet there?
How on Earth were the Seville, Southampton and West Brom games “good” for Karius? What exactly did he do in those games?
And Liverpool scored against Leicester because of him?
Incredible!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for the article Phil.
I don’t agree with everything in it (I don’t see how some of the games you mentioned are meaningless – certainly not to a lad who’s trying to establish himself in the first team – and I also echo KM’s post above). That said, I do agree with the central points …
1) that Klopp should have done enough by now to have earned our trust on selection
2) that he has seen enough of Mignolet to know how good he is
The thing I want to mention on the goalkeeping issue (which, to be fair to you, isn’t an issue with this article) is something which has been coming over in some of the TAW shows recently – namely the disrespect being shown to Mignolet.
To be clear – I think Liverpool could and should upgrade on Mignolet. I personally don’t think that Karius is ready yet to be that upgrade but am happy to back Klopp’s judgement for the rest of the season. However, I don’t think that we need to be “going to town” because Mignolet is considering his future or be laughing at him for wanting first team football in a World Cup year. He’s been at Liverpool for almost 5 years – it’s not his fault that the club constantly play him. He does his best and has been good enough to be in a team that finished fourth last year.
Maybe it’s old school, but in my opinion we should support the players whilst they are at the club rather than take the piss out of them.
I meant meaningless in terms of there being nothing for him to do to prove a positive or a negative.
Ah I see – I missed that in the first read through. Makes sense now. Cheers.
Agree with the sentiment, Karius should get a run in to prove whether a consistent run out improves what the general perception of his abilities are. Those who review Squawka stats will know both keepers read for unimpressive stats Migs with a 1.21 avg saves per goal vs. Karuis 0.50 avg saves per goal! (shocka)
All likelihood is we’ll get a keeper by the end of the summer although not sure Allison is the best solution. If we’re going to buy we should do what we have done in VVD, get the best possible and either Jan Oblak or Gianluigi Donnarumma’s are both world class options. Someone needs to tell the scouts to really look at this Donnarumma kid… having seen him in quite a few games last season he has the potential to be one of the all time (dare I say it). At the level he is at, at 18 years old he could be an absolute rock in our goal for the next 15-20 years. Now that’s an investment worth pursuing!
You make many a fair point, but remember, this is the internet age, and anyone with an internet enabled device has the ability to have their thoughts immortalised for the rest of time. Football is the past time interest of many a moron. You know one thing that gets me is how fans applaud when someone sprays the ball to the other flank??!!?? People lap it up as if it is some master-stroke of footballing genius. Football fans are by and large morons, but everyone apparently can now have a say (Hence why we have Brexit) So rather than debate the arguments of people with no fucking idea, just point out that there are a whole lot of idiots out there who know how to type, just ignore most of what they say. Problem solved.
I think at the moment where Liverpool has reach we don’t need to start gambling by try this and that, Kraius always concede very useless goals compare to Mignolet. I would prefer to use Danny ward than Kraius. We had alot of issues with our defense,I hope Van Djik can rescue us and Lovren can start Drinking water on the bench.
Good article Phil.
Like you, I backed Migs for sometime. Being a keeper myself ( probably to the dismay of my teammates ) I get what happens and I look for the errors. As you said there have been too many for too long. That becomes a structural issue with basics. A keeper’s sole role is to make saves regardless of how “pretty” it looks or how bad the players are in front of him. Unfortunately Migs makes big basic errors.
As for Karius, I’m not convinced. I haven’t seen enough of his decision making to decide. He is poor with the ball at his feet.
Ward in the very limited times I’ve seen him appears very confident in the box and that translates to the back line. Since none of us are on the training pitch we can’t be sure the best option. Klopp can be patient in both waiting to get a player in but also in getting him out. Let’s hope that isn’t the case with the keepers as he clearly has picked Karius for #1 for EPL
Come on Phil!!! First let’s look at obvious errors by Manager Klop in the Man City Game. Whatever one may think of Mignolet he is a better goalkeeper than Karius. If you want to give Karius a chance use him against the bottom league teams not number one. So to start a game against the number one side with the worst of two keepers was wrong. Their first goal was knocked as an error by Peter Schmeichel in his summation of the game. In the 78th Minute when we are 4 1 up Klop takes off Can. Why take off a defender when we are required to hold our lead?? Surely take off Mane or Fermino and bolster the defense. They score in 83rd minute. Still up 4 2. In 87th minute he takes off Salah, the hardest working forward who is our best chance to score a runaway goal whilst we defend. But error on error he replaces him with Lallana, a forward???? instead of a defender to hold them out for the final minutes. OMG come on Manager Klop where’s the logic???
Possibly the best article ever written by Phil. Well dine and thanks.
And the topic is possibly dearest to hearts and souls of all die hard fans, even more so than the left back debate, interestingly :)