JOINING Rob Gutmann for a broader look at FSG’s ownership of Liverpool Football Club on this week’s Unwrapped are Neil Atkinson, Paul Hogan and Simon Hughes of The Independent.
Prompted by Simon’s piece in The Independent earlier in the week critiquing the ownership group’s tenure both on and off the pitch, the panel take along look at the changes that have occurred since John W Henry and what was then New England Sports Ventures took control of an ailing Liverpool FC.
Having stabilised the club and balanced the books, the current owners have operated with plenty of credit in the bank for the most part, but questions remain:
Is the newly-expanded Anfield good enough for Liverpool or is it merely a sticking plaster solution?
Given that Liverpool are a consistent presence in the infamous Deloitte Money League top 10, why are they lagging behind their supposed equals when it comes to performances on the pitch?
Are Liverpool doing enough to win, or is the often claimed ‘conservative attitude’ behind the scenes contributing to a constant cycle of near misses?
All this, in depth, and more in a barnstorming ‘Unwrapped’.
I made a pledge to myself today that I wasn’t going to comment on TAW for a bit because I write too much and too often. Then this show comes along. It’s a fascinating subject and I can’t help get involved.
An interesting point was made earlier in the show about ‘what is it we expect from our owners’. It’s the crux of the whole debate. I believe a lot of the criticism levelled at them stems from ignorance. What I mean by that is there are a lot of thick people about. We’ve seen it with Brexit. The documentary maker Adam Curtis made a good point in relation to social media and how we all follow pages etc that we feel represent us. So, if I feel I’m anti-FSG because I don’t like American businessmen and I didn’t like H&G then I might follow ‘FSG Out’ on Twitter or ‘FSG are bleeding us dry’ on fb. I won’t follow ‘Actually, FSG are doing ok’. So, I’m getting bombarded with information that enhances those views and polarises my opinion. In the end I end up loosing sight of what is achievable.
In some ways, I refer to the people who saw Abramovic take a fairly shit club and turn then into league and CL winners and saw Sheikh Mansour take an even shitter club and turn them into league winners and soon to be CL winners. They then think, I want some of that. The reality is, we’ve missed the boat on those days. Sugar daddies can’t happen anymore. Ok, it’s right to say someone with bottomless pits of money can find ways to circumnavigate FFP rules but it’s not as easy as one might think. If a sponsorship deal looks too good to be true then UEFA investigate it and their panel decide what is a fair price for the deal. If it’s too far over sanctions get put in place. So, I think we have to be realistic about the modern role of owners. Neil’s absolutely right though, Chinese investment would see a lot more money floating on the periphery of the club and I’m sure some of that would seep into the club itself. One could question the morality of having such owners but one thing that’s become clear is Chelsea and City fans love their owners and what it’s done for their enjoyment of football. A small part of me would still like to see us reach the top without buying the title if only for sustainability reasons. Abramovic will pass away one day. What then? Their only hope is that they reach a position like Utd are in before that.
Another huge obstacle for FSG is perception. The worst type of fan is those that say FSG are bleeding us dry or asset stripping when Suarez, Torres or Sterling leave. It’s simply not the case. Obviously, in time their tenure at Anfield will be richly rewarded but that’s a different thing. It’s more a case that their plan has always been to take an ailing club and make it strong for when the real money men come in from China. I have an issue with perception too. Mine relates to the Annie Road. It’s needed more than ever but not massively as a business plan. When it doesn’t get built because there’s a feeling that it’s not commercially viable then my perception of them leans towards they’re only here to make money in the long term rather than doing what’s best for the whole identity of Liverpool. If it was going to lose money then I’d agree with them but it’s the opposite except it’s not a quick return on investments. My point is, that one issue has changed my perception of them and instead of seeing all the good that’s happening to the club I become side tracked by my perception of them not caring about the club as a whole. Then, looking at our trophyless decade (forget that one) becomes down to their lack of ambition and them only caring about the final outcome and how well the books look at D Day. The truth is that FSG are desperate for success and I’d stick my neck on the line and say for 3 reasons. The obvious 2 which are success equals a higher sale price but also businessmen of their calibre want success for personal gratification. They don’t like failing. The third is more speculative but I think to an extent they look forward to a day when they deliver the fans a league title. I genuinely believe that. If it happens you’ll see the pride on their faces. They want to please us to an extent. You only have to look at their decisions to see how much they want success. Failure is not accepted. It quickly ends with the sack. So, that comes round to my final point, why haven’t they got it.
I think with the whole team in place we will get it. I think we’re nearly there. We just need a big summer to properly enhance the squad. I think we will do it. We can’t really level the ‘value’ argument at them anymore. The last 3 years have shown that. We obviously have budgets though. To conclude, we have to ask do FSG have the skill set to bring us success. Well, I believe Tony Evans is closest to the mark in one of his (many) criticisms of them. Everything is ok really but where we’ve been let down is on recruitment. That’s still the white elephant in the room but I’m confident there too. I saw the transfer committee as men doing the bidding of FSG and the restraints whether the old moneyball, value or fuckin sabermetrics had us in a kind of no mans land where we lost sight of the goal. Add the battle with Rodgers and it became a confusing mess. With Klopp having more control I believe priority has returned to old school scouting (which is what I believe Tony bemoaned). I liked last summers business. Another summer like that with perhaps double the acquisitions of last summer and we’ll be flying. If it comes to pass – the big summer and better recruitment, as I believe it will – then in my opinion the only real criticism not addressed is the Annie Road. I don’t feel it will be done but feel it should be purely to give something back to the fans and show they care. The perception then would change hugely beyond their wildest expectations (except for the inbreds on their fb pages).
Atko gets me pumped…
Great show…and kinda shows we’ve loads of hope and fears. But it’s a lot more complicated than that.
United are the richest side and have finished something like 6 6 4 6 last 4 seasons
Outstanding show.
Essential listening, sums up and addresses the salient points of this summer and FSG.
Any analysis of the state of the team that looks any earlier than the Klopp appointment is a waste of time and irrelevant. What FSG did or didn’t do prior to October 2015, is history and a good read on a snowy winter night but in terms of whether LIV can win trophies going forward depends on Klopp and team. Hope they will and hope the owners give him the tools he wants.
Everything prior just doesn’t matter.
BTW, I find the Independent site a horror show of ads and my pet peeve, the impossible video ad which won’t stop and must be suffered while the site loads a shit ton of other ads. I’m sure Simon’s article is fine not least because there he has an editor.
It’s a bit pathetic to hope this summers transfer window will be any different to the last. A bit like the “we’re gonna win the league” shite last October. Just as pathetic is belief and hope in any “long term project” that apparently has no timescale. Tomorrow never comes. The rational mind will look at how the club has been run by the owners since the they arrived. Klopp answers to them. He is a football coach of a sports franchise. Not a billionaire owner of a sports investment company. FSG will not change thier business model.People need to re-read John Henrys open letter. Next season will see us fighting for 4th place again with a paper thin squad and a bench worth less than £30M. Because that is were the returns are. That is why FSG are here. For a return on thier investment. And there is no return competing with the top teams in Europe, with £85M players. The money is in being 9th richest club in the world with a squad that competes with Everton. Or, hopefully, Burnley.
I really liked the show. I thought it was going to be a whinge session but it ended up being relatively well balanced. Ok FSG have made some mistakes bur overall they are doing more good things than bad, but only because they are on a learning curve with what it takes to own a club in the worlds toughest league. I think the biggest hurdle that they need to overcome with fans is simple perception. Too often the voices of the bread and butter fans of this great club are overwhelmed or ignored by the ignorant, tantrum like ravings of the muppet’s on social media. Yes you know who you are, the people in real life who nobody listens to because you are unable to come up with your own simple “rational” arguments/opinions and because everyone thinks you are knob-head. The cold hard reality of football these days is that there is no such thing as a free lunch and no such thing as instant gratification. Every thing takes time, loads of hard work and more than a smidgen of luck. We true LFC fans have to show some patience and understanding, we have waited so long already whats another couple of seasons, I personally would rather have us build up and be at the top for another 2-3 decades than do the 1 season wonder thing like Leicester and disappear again. I have faith in Klopp, I like the momentum we are building, (ok slowly) but I believe we are heading in the right direction. We have to have faith, we don’t have sugar daddy owners and I personally I don’t want one as this would destroy the soul of this great club. The most rewarding results are earned not given or bought. For those fair weather fans who feel that their loyalty is not being rewarded sufficiently do us all favor and bugger off, or at least turn the volume down a bit. Your demented ravings and jumping on whatever fabricated bandwagon that is being pushed past your nose at the time creates nothing but noise thar detracts from real issues that need to be addressed. FSG arent great in some areas but at least they are soild enough, we could do worse, a lot worse.
Who are you to judge what’s a legitimate opinion?
Did you earn some divine accreditation to judge what is, or isn’t valid.
Where pray tell can we unwashed masses earn one of these?
Some Kloppites who worship at the alter of the righteous ‘believer’ are just as bad in their “rational” arguments as those they accuse.
We can just as legitimately claim you to be lackeys for not facing up to issues plaguing the club. All you present is a never ending list of excuses to help prop up your ‘faith in Klopp’, irrespective of the valid criticisms.
Some of us prefer to see these issues discussed openly, and not marginalized by ‘believers’… but to some on here that amounts to heresy.
I’m sorry that you took this so personally I didn’t realise that you had taken my opinion as an attack on you directly. It was comment on the “mob rule” mentality of social media and the expectation that one has to defer to the opinion of the perceived or most vocal majority. The thing that gets up my nose the most is SM’s negativity. Is the glass half empty or half full. Being a generally positive person, I get sick of the SM moaning, whining negativity that is perceived as the opinion of the LFC fan base as a whole by the real media.
Before you start screaming about me judging your opinion you replied with not only an attack on me but other LFC fans. Why? Because some of them disagree with you maybe? Not once in your reply did you state any “issues” but slagged off anybody that did not have the same worldview as you.
I rest my case.
Yes I believe you should have your own opinion and make it heard if you feel strongly enough about it, but when you burn or shout down someone that has the temerity to disagree with you, that is not acceptable.
“I have faith in Klopp, I like the momentum we are building, (ok slowly) but I believe we are heading in the right direction” And you think “faith” and “belief” is “rational” ?? Whilst at the same time speaking for”everyone” calling other supporters “knobheads” because you don’t agree with them?
Gets back to rational thinking. You can either do it or rely on “belief” and “faith”.
Prick.
Just a couple of things (else I end up repeating what I have said elsewhere)…
I know it was just a hypothetical question to finish the show, but if fans are going to evaluate FSG against some idealised foreign owner with unlimited wealth, who will somehow bypass FFP to allow Liverpool to spend, spend, spend, then of course they are likely to come up short. But, that is like a fat bored housewife sitting on a sofa reading Barbara Cartland novels and hoping the tall, dark handsome stranger of her dreams is going to whisk her off to a new life.
A couple of journalists (and friends of TAW) have been caught out with spoof stories about Chinese interest in LFC, and so now fans feel it is reasonable to think that if FSG don’t deliver the success we want, they should sell up to a new owner, who will of course be backed by unlimited funds of the Chinese state! It isn’t going to happen. When and if FSG sell, whose to say it won’t be to another investment group looking for a return and possibly putting debt in to the club to achieve the purchase.
There is an often repeated idea FSG aren’t interested in investing to compete, because they are making enough money bumping along outside the top 4. Leaving aside the fact that they don’t take any income from the club, any eventual return on the investment comes from growth in value of the club. The value of all the top clubs has grown due to increased TV deals, but there is still a huge upside for FSG if Liverpool can compete consistently at the top level. The estimated value of Man U is over twice that of Liverpool. Liverpool can’t hope to reach that level, but it is realistic to think that in time Liverpool should be able to match the level of our other domestic rivals. The idea that FSG are happy to sit back and leave another $500m-$1b of gain on the table because it wouldn’t be worth their effort to go after it seems daft.
To me, FSG don’t appear to be as committed to success as many supporters would like them to be… that’s the perception anyway.
The business model and budget they’ve imposed on LFC in today’s footballing reality, doesn’t look a valid strategy for sustained success.
If for whatever reason they’re unable / unwilling to sufficiently fund the club, then maybe they should look to sell up.
Then maybe they can move on and perhaps buy a club like Southampton… one more in line with their business model.
Buy cheap young players, sell on for higher fees, all without any real pressure to compete at the top.
Because as I see it, that’s the danger of where we could be heading in the long term, especially if we continue to be excluded from champions league football for extended periods of time.
David, you raise a very interesting point here and one I feel that as fans, TAW commenters and people who generally like talking about LFC we should thrash out and discuss because it is at the crux of everything.
It’s these 2 statements I would love to hear you elaborate on.
“The business model and budget they’ve imposed on LFC in today’s footballing reality, doesn’t look a valid strategy for sustained success”.
My opinion – LFC have a budget. FSG as custodians decide how much of it we spend and in what areas. Last summer aside, no money has ever been left on the table at the end of the financial year.
Put another way, I buy my wife a 1990 Cleo because I only have £600 in my bank. She says I’d rather have had a 2017 Merc. Am I the one to blame for her not having it?
“If for whatever reason they’re unable / unwilling to sufficiently fund the club, then maybe they should look to sell up”.
My opinion – Based on the rules funding the club has to be from money LFC generate.
Are you suggesting there’s another way fund the club which would produce more money?
It’s important to discuss these points because it causes a lot of division and as you rightly say, a bad perception. I just don’t understand how you’re proposing things being done different. I’d love to know.
Ouch Graeme.
Let’s hope Simon doesn’t read this comment.
Personally, I think there’s enough evidence that the Chinese ‘interest’ was genuine and real.
Maybe there has been some sort of interest Robin. But I don’t think either Simon’s or Jonathan Northcroft’s story stood up at all.
The group Simon linked us with did go on to make a different investment in Britain – they bought a pub near Chequers which the Camerons used to frequent. Nice pub, does a decent B&B, I’ve stayed their myself.
Really good balanced show.
Just asking questions of the owners rather than criticizing for the sake of it.
Id sell to the Chinese because I think one of the oldest Chinese communities to exist outside China is in Liverpool.
I like those types of old links to the city.
I think if FSG did sell it would be to an owner on a higher level to them in terms of wealth.
That would only be a good thing for the city and club like Neil said.
However, we have “nearly” been successful under FSG and with a bit better luck they could have already won a league title and a Uefa Cup and a League cup and an FA Cup.
I understand that “nearly” isnt what we’re after but it highlights the reason why I’m happy to give a bit more time to FSG.
So I think we are at a win win scenario stage for Liverpool fans, either FSG are successful within a two year period from now, or they would be under massive pressure to either, invest heavily or sell up.
Great show as always
FSG make some big gaffes but I’d rather have them in charge than an oilygarch. FSG are like steady eddie’s.
I think when they first came in they were genuinely interested in emulating what they did in Boston and competing quickly, and they backed Kenny with a lot of money, but they got stung. We wasted a lot of that money on bad player recruitment. So they’ve been careful ever since and you can’t blame them for that to be honest because they haven’t got limitless dough.
Basically they’ve realised that football is a much darker and more complex beast than the numbers game that rules in America. But it’s true that we could be worse off…they’re not evil owners or anything, even if John Henry does look kind of reptilian
Let’s be honest most of us would hate it if we sold out to a soulless tyrant like Chelsea and City have done. That’s just not Liverpool and never will be.
I remember the big gamble that Leeds did, which nearly worked out (they missed out by one point thanks to us and Gary Mac’s free kick!). Everyone laughed at them when it all went wrong, but to be honest it was a romantic story when you consider the horrors of Abramovich that were just around the corner. At least they risked it all and went for it.
It’s modern footie. And we hate it.
Can the poster who elegantly presented the numbers FFP allows us to spend this season please stand up?
Because it isn’t FFP restricting our transfer budget.
You’re right and I didn’t say any different. Liverpool spend what they make or what’s left after expenses. I was saying next year the ‘what’s left’ will be high. Someone else said those figures can’t be right because of ffp and I explained why my figures wouldn’t fail ffp. But? Ultimately lfc’s spend ties in with revenue not ffp
FSG are solid but lack ambition and don’t know whom to listen to. They were told that Rafa was the baddest bastard in the world and that having a strong manager that is in complete control is the wrong model, despite it being the historic Liverpool model, so they go down the director of football model and that doesn’t work, fortunately they now have Klopp and they hopefully will let him make all the decisions and back him. Big summer ahead.