John Gibbons hosts a special show looking at Liverpool and Manchester United’s rivalry down the years.
With Mike Nevin, Steve Armstrong and Rob Gutmann the discussion is as well-informed, open and honest as you’d expect.
Direct: The Rivals: Man United – Part One
Brilliant. Remember them violent days in the 80s as if they were yesterday.
Great to hear an honest United view on it all.
I was born in 1984, so there is not much I remember from the 1980’s, but this was an outstanding show. Not only for the way it covered the rivalry, but also the broader socio-economic context, and the way football has changed.
Steve’s contribution was (as per usual) spot on. Definitely worth following up on the Premier League era.
That was one of the best shows I’ve listened to.
I’ll be honest, on previous shows I’ve been annoyed at times the way people have talked about football crowds in the 80’s. There’s been a tendency to apply today’s rules into that context. It’s absolutely ridiculous to do that. Yeah, if someone today acted like people did back then they’d probably be an absolute knob but the people back then weren’t. The 80’s were completely different times. I wrote the following paragraph on Rob’s infamous Chelsea review but I’d put keywords in there that wouldn’t allow me to post it.
“The police were no different. I’ve got a fair few memories but one time I saw a brawl between police and fans in Mansfield last the whole half and no one got nicked because it would have taken the police out the action. I think that was society as a whole to be honest back then. One of my earliest memories was standing at my gate watching two lads fight in the street and the whole cul de sac was watching. There were rounds and at the end of each round they went to their corners where their mums gave them chocolate and encouragement and then when it got back underway they were screaming ‘go on son fuckin kill him’. I still remember the blood on their bare torso’s, It seems barbaric now but it was just a straightener to solve a dispute. That’s how I remember the early 80’s. Football was just the vessel people chose to carry out their violence”.
The guests were brilliant on this show. I found them honest and not ashamed of what was youth culture of the time. Loved Steve’s line ‘I love any sort of violence’, haha. They’re right though, it was about adrenaline and the buzz of it all. I look back with fond memories, even of times where my head has been twice the size it should have been because I’d steamed into a group of lads and had them all kick my head like it was a football. I agree about Maine Road too. Without doubt the best ground I went to for adrenaline. Steve mentioned inside but my memories are outside. Dodgy as fuck. The first time I went there was for a night match. I’d never been anywhere like it. I put it down to age as well as the times. The 80’s were a great time to be a teenager. I find it fascinating too the change that came once the 80’s were over. Mike, understandably mentions the change in 89 but for me, I remember Chester playing Macclesfield in an FA Cup tie in 1990. I’d spent the night trippin and went straight to the game. Loads of mates got arrested and I never went to a any match for nearly a decade after that (largely due to buying a bus and leaving England but the buzz of it changed for me that day. I saw it, probably for what it was, a bit pathetic). When I came back in 99 I couldn’t believe how different football was. What shocked me most was the way my mates spoke about football and the knowledge they had. I realise now it was down to the Sky era and analysis etc. I don’t think I was actually that into the footy side of things previously. People go on about modern football but it’s fantastic. Football on the pitch has never been so captivating.
Just one more point, it was nice to hear Mike say about the Manchester is full of shit chant. One thing I can’t quite get away from is my hatred for Chelsea fans. I still find it hard to be near them on match day without mouthing off to them but although I hate Utd as a club and everything about them (I’ve always liked the tribal aspect of football) I actually respect their lads and love their city. In the late 80’s and up to 92 I was there all through the week at Eastern Bloc records and I was there every weekend at gigs or the Hacienda. I still think the city is brilliant and their lads are sound. I’ve got a lot of good mates over there. I’m sure my mate Zach would know Steve. They probably follow Utd in a similar way.
To finish, I love the way football is now. Ok, I don’t like a lot of aspects of the crowd but my point is, I wouldn’t go back to the 80’s. No chance. It was just a product of the times. That said, I’m not ashamed of anything I did back then. I just loved anything that felt edgy. I made loads of those missiles of hate in my garage after they appeared in the newspaper. I could never do a full ball tho. Could only get the nails into half the ball. The show was a brilliant insight into things some things I wasn’t aware of around those times. So, brilliant, insightful, honest show with brilliant guests. Can’t wait for Monday now. I’m glad there’s still 48 hours because if it was in an hour or two I’d be going in the wrong frame of mind after listening to all that, haha. P.s, my favourite bit of the show was Rob’s story about getting put in the Liverpool end. I bet it wasn’t before he’d offered the whole end out.
Well before the end of this talk this seemed like a well-considered minor classic. ‘Say it how it was’ without too much bed-wetting or glorification. Tucked in close to an upcoming game which will make me more grateful for this rivalry and incredulous that Alex Ferguson, of all Scots, should have the A1 arteries to keep him on his course of retribution.
TL;DR Robin, ever heard of the word “succinct”? I bet with myself on the number of paragraphs that will appear after your name these days
A couple of things, I’ve always written long comments on here. I feel the need to express myself and unfortunately for TAW this is the place I’ve chosen. Prior to 2011 I chose Facebook. The problem with that is it’s people I know including family friends and the parents of my sons school mates etc. It’s not fair on him for them to think his dad is a bit weird. At least on here no one knows me.
Another thing, I’ve said many times on here the simplest thing to do, I see a certain name and ignore it and move onto the next comment because I know it’ll be meaningless shit. It’s not difficult. We all have that choice. There’s no need for you to get worked up by my comments. Simple tip, just scroll past it. I comment for me, not you. I have this strange need to talk to myself in the early hours.
One final thing, my comments might be shit, I’ve admitted as much in the past but what do you get from yours? It’s a completely meaningless comment and adds nothing. You’re just stating what we all know. Personally, I think it’s even worse than mine. Anyway, as far as I’m concerned you can swivel on that.
I always make a point of reading the comments left by Robin Crimes. Maybe because I think we’re around the same age and have had similar experiences at matches etc. Anyway carry on Rob, I enjoy your contribution.
Haha, nice one mate. You must be about 28 then.
Probably have the same taste in music too judging by your name.
An alternative perspective: the violence was shit. I don’t miss it one bit.
+1
I think I’ve been a listener to TAW since podcast 1, and subscribe, and listen to almost everyone (the joys of a 2 hour daily commute!).
Firstly, this is the only podcast I’ve listened to twice (the other one remarkably was Stoke 6-1!!). Mike Nevin, Steve Armstrong and Rob Gutmann were brilliant.
Brilliantly honest, brilliantly articulate, brilliantly real. I could have listened to it all night. I will listen again, I have no doubt. I also loved that Gibbo asked the right questions, then just seemed to enjoy the answers as I did.
As a 41 year old Liverpool fan (who became a Liverpool fan because of their 80’s success), I didn’t go to my 1st game until 1992. By which time, the football landscape had change (was changing).
I knew about the 80’s football and the fans, of course I did. I watched 80’s football fans on the tv, but never really understood what was going on behind the scenes because I had no way of having access to it without going to the games. Growing up in Telford, you either did Wolves, or Shrewsbury, or like me (and my entire class it seems), support Liverpool.
As someone who has no connection with either Liverpool or Manchester (or certainly didn’t then), I never knew why there was such a rivalry. I’d read stuff, but never ‘knew’. I believed it was a success thing. My younger brother, by 5 years, supports to Utd (never been to a game in your life I used to tell him when he was 11 after I’d been to one!!). He already seemed the ‘next generation’ of football fan from a non-football town who supported the best team at that time.
Anyway: No idea where I’m going with this!, other than to say Thank you.
Thank you for the best podcast I’ve ever listened to. A podcast, I can genuinely say was worth every bit of the subs I’ve paid since it went behind a paywall, and that in no way decries the other brilliant content on this website.
Thank you.
Steve. ‘I just love anything that involves violence’ Come on, would you take that stance if it involved you or your family, or ended someones playing career? Horrible quote.
No ‘tales that grew in the telling’, or more charitably, (and accurately), memory displacement on show at all here lads ‘police horses with no riders, tails on fire’ etc? That imagery is actually from something like ‘Downfall’ or Anthony Beevor on the Eastern Front. This is an entertaining pod but also a little unsettling. I love the visceral nature of TAW but just occasionally, I dunno’, I lived through those times, they were nothing to brag about (not that I actually believe anyone is ‘bragging’, just, close to the line. Which, I s’pose is what makes it a good pod. Full circle! :)
Corretion – Fantastic Pod. :)
Enjoyed this a lot. Didn’t realise that the teams and supporter bases were mostly on good terms up until the mid-70s. Mid-80s were before I was born – on balance I’m glad I wasn’t there, but no better guides through that time than those on this pod.
The United fan clearly misses the days of all the violence and has gone off it all a bit now it’s all “about the football”.
Oh and “Oh Manchester is full of shit” is a perfectly fine chant.
What a podcast. One of the best I too have ever heard. Brilliant. I never really got in the way of a clattering tho’ I went to a bunch of away games in London in the 80’s. Nearest was celebrating as quietly as I could in the shed end (don’t ask) as Mark Lawrenson I think, scored in a cup game which we won 2-1. It is something I was not ever into either way. Really really interesting hearing the lads tell those stories (and you too Robin). As Prince said … a sign of the times … Great stuff.