Mike Nevin reflects on why opposing fans hate Liverpool so much after the reds FA Cup tie vs Plymouth Argyle where anti-scouse songs rang around the Home Park.
I MANAGED to get myself really wound up while watching the Plymouth cup replay in midweek.
What irked me most, amid the usual anti-Scouse song repertoire, was the way a consoling rendition of You’ll Never Walk Alone – quite clearly aired to mark the passing of Argyle fan Daniel May during the original tie at Anfield – was booed and drowned out by a section of the home support.
Daniel’s father Kevin had attended the first match on Merseyside and was at pains to thank Merseyside Police, as well as local fans he encountered during his hour of need, for the way he was cared for on receiving the news of his son’s untimely death. There should have been no confusion as the lament offered by our travelling fans – on the 25th minute to recognise Daniel’s age — was accompanied by a banner conveying the same message of sympathy.
Unless you’re unremittingly thick, I fail to comprehend how this show of support was misconstrued. It was alright for us to join in with a minutes’ applause for Daniel, but it was not OK to use Liverpool’s most famous football song to consolidate our empathy. If it was misunderstood by some, I apologise.
But, I was left with one question in my head. You’re Plymouth – not Everton or Manchester United – and in football terms we have little in common. We hadn’t met in competition since both clubs shared status in the 1950s Second Division. Why do the strains of our anthem — Liverpool’s defining song — even in clearly different, supportive circumstances offend you so much?
I’m prepared to accept not all Plymouth supporters reacted in such a crass manner – a minority is more audible than a silent respectable throng – but the familiar diatribe of antisocial chants aimed at our fans points to a wider skewed perception and enmity towards Liverpool and Liverpool FC that sticks in the craw.
PLYMOUTH, ENGLAND – Wednesday, January 18, 2017: Liverpool supporter hold up a banner “RIP Daniel May You’ll Never Walk Alone” during the FA Cup 3rd Round Replay match against Plymouth Argyle (Pic by David Rawcliffe/Propaganda)
Football is tribal, and while some chants are more unacceptable than others, it is very much what makes the sport what it is; what gives your insane bias to one club its rationale. However, I do wonder how Liverpool seems to engender a disdain all of its own and a copycat stream of abuse that seems fair game nationwide.
Suffice to say the media has played its part down the years. Mud sticks but in light of more recent struggles it’s not unreasonable to expect at least a minor sea change in opinion. Not so, apparently. If anything, since the Hillsborough verdicts were overturned – an unwelcome little dig in the ribs for a growing moronic element in this increasingly putrid country — I detect a hardening of contempt in some quarters.
Even writing this column I fear some will trot out the well-worn ‘self-pity’ tagline that precludes the right to respond to the notion Liverpool, and by extension its football club, remains highly unpopular in this country. Anyone who has lived or worked away from the city will have encountered the lazy, downright fucking insulting stereotypes we’re expected to laugh along with and take on the chin.
On this, witness Mr Charisma, Neil Warnock – in the post Plymouth analysis on BT Sports – insinuate that Liverpool is so backward, dark and grim, that we don’t even have windows in our houses to cast any light on our pitiful domesticity. Warnock was flanked by two Liverpudlians, Gerrard and Steve McManaman and was able to just laugh off his clumsy woolyback jibe. God help us if we ever challenge those ideas for fear we’ll be accused of being a whingeing Scouser with no sense of humour.
Reverting back to the football, how much longer must we listen to the ultra-tiresome Demba Ba chant aimed at a footballer who has actually now retired from the game?
When we ‘nearly won the league’ in 2014 I heard some say neutrals were behind Liverpool and, while I remained unconvinced of this at the time, nothing since has persuaded me to think the footy nation at large salivated over our near miss and flagellated themselves silly over Steven Gerrard’s ‘slip’. To be fair, it’s a catchy, enduring little number for the witless sheep for whom the concept of personality is complete anathema.
I can accept that in a society that is increasingly fuelled by ‘the banter’ – an old-fashioned piss-take to you and I – there is a comedy value in Gerrard’s ‘slip’ but is schadenfreude all you’ve got left, lads? Will you forever remain strangers to original thought and maybe even some real humour?
Maybe I have to accept that a country and football community that delighted in Stanley Matthews winning his longed for FA Cup winners’ medal in 1953 no longer exists. Perhaps the neutral is also a thing of the past.
If Jamie Vardy had missed a penalty denying Leicester last year’s title, I doubt he and Leicester folk would have been subjected to such sustained mockery. Of course, Leicester were huge (trendy) underdogs last year, but so too (to a lesser degree) were The Reds in 2014. You might have thought more than just a few followers of the game here would have a welcomed a new name on the trophy to break up the latter day Premier League monopoly of moneybags United, Manchester City and Chelsea.
When John Terry, a man with more character stains than Ryan Giggs has title medals, fell over in Moscow and handed United their most recent European Cup, the country had more or less forgotten about it by the following August. Terry – and Chelsea fans – largely escaped the derision that we’re still hearing week in, week out.
So, why do we have more than our fair share of haters? Why is the Scouse-ist song sheet as familiar as the hymn book from the days we all went to church? Why are inaccurate chants about unemployment, rats and council houses, Liverpool slums, and accusations of far worse just lobbed in and passed off as ‘footy bantz’?
I’d like to think it was because my generation are shit scared of a potential trophy-winning renaissance for a club that scarred their childhood. Perhaps there is an element of truth in this; revealed in the latest form of mockery that we think “it’s gonna be our year.” What do you expect, dickheads? Well, one day soon it is going to be ‘our year’ and it’s going to hurt.
LIVERPOOL, ENGLAND – Thursday, May 5, 2016: Liverpool supporters welcome the team coaches to the stadium before the UEFA Europa League Semi-Final 2nd Leg match against Villarreal CF at Anfield. (Pic by David Rawcliffe/Propaganda)
The rest would prefer we merely accept our fate; just fall in and embrace the gallows humour of yesteryear’s other fallen giants. No chance, lads. Football is meant to represent hope and optimism and there are better ways to have a laugh than to pogo round an away end in bad clobber 3-0 down singing “we’re gonna win 4-3.”
Maybe the truth lies in the fact that Liverpool has become a nationwide phenomenon. The Reds in the 21st Century have turned into the United of the 1980s with all the glitz, glamour and support and fuck all trophies.
There remains a local Mersey fanbase but our past success and with it our trendy heritage – plus our tragedy – has brought with it legions of supporters in every provincial town. Everyone from Lands End to John O’Groats probably knows a ‘Scouser’ – a term used to describe Reds followers who might never have even walked in the shadow of the city’s cathedrals – and it doubtless rubs them up the wrong way. They’ve eschewed their local team in favour of The Reds, for right or wrong, and it grates a bit with them.
It’s all rather lame; a bit pathetic. Such scorn, jealousy, entrenched misplaced hatred – whatever it is — soured what should have been a good moment at Home Park in midweek.
Sometimes it’s good to remember that football is just the most important of the unimportant things in life.
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Pics: David Rawcliffe-Propaganda Photo
Jealousy, pure and simple. Of our team, our history, our city, and of us Scousers. Everyone knows who we are and what we’re about. They don’t even get a flicker on the radar. Haters gonna hate, let them!
Every body hates Us cos it takes WEEK’S To walk past our Trophy cabinet and it has alway’s been our Year and alway’s will be,because we are a Tribe called LIVERPOOL and we come in peace and carry banners Galore
Teams generally attract these mocking reactions when they are winning. A lot.
When Liverpool were in their pomp, the city (and the country) was not in the best shape, and was certainly reported as such via the media of the time. That created the songs, as misplaced as they may be. Everyone, up and down the country, wanted to cover up the pain of defeat by having a pop at Liverpool. Made them feel better I suppose.
When United hit their stride during the happy, clappy 90s Sky Sports and Soccer AM had got their paws on the game and began sanitizing and sterlising and generalising the “product” so the new insults and songs etc began to become less mocking and insulting to a general football following base in Plymouth or Yeovil or Brighton.
I suppose, for Liverpool, those songs from the 80s – the demba ba one aside, which is plain wierd – are all that the average football fan from Plymouth has these days to try and make themselves get one up on the Reds
You’ll never get a job! Sound dickheads, we can all afford a match ticket while we’re on the dole. It’s just lazy isn’t it? I’ve got no problem with people taking the piss as long as it’s relevant and without lashings of hypocrasy but when natives of places like from East London and Leeds go on about shit holes and slums it makes you wonder what the hell they are smoking…wankers!
Excuse *from* typo
When you get at least of half of Old Trafford singing ” The s**was right, murderers” and nothing is said, there does seem to be a culture of Liverpool and Liverpool fans being ‘ fair game’ for some reason.
Good article, Mike.
To be fair to some of the Plymouth fans – those who don’t exactly scramble to join the mighty green army for your average league game at home park – there wasn’t much of a song list after ‘shall we sing a song for you?’ And the Gerrard one. So they decided to boo us showing respect instead. Got a bit excited. Big day out and all that..
It’s just so boring and I’ve never understood it, anytime I’m in Anfield I sing songs about us, our players and our team, the only song I can think off that mentions other clubs is “we hate Nottingham Forrest” goes to show how old this song is if Forrest are the first team mentioned.
I noticed it keenly in the week building up to the united game, got countless texts and tweets mocking Liverpool from united supporting friends, usually replied with “I don’t need to define my support of my club through my hatred of another” they don’t like it when you put it like that!
We don’t sing that Forest song lad, that’s a Bitters’ chant you trool! All the ‘hate’ songs came out of Goodison; the only non-LFC mention I can think of is the Costa ‘Elephant Man’ song. Remember how the Kop reacted to that wool chant about clapping if you hate the mancs. Fuck that shite right off, We are Liverpool remember and we have enough of a glorious history not to demean our club.
Haven’t been the game for a couple years but I heard it at most games I used to go to- and didn’t mind it one bit. Which I suppose makes me a hypocrite- then again I did think it was the one song we sang about other teams (we weren’t playing) so didn’t overwhelm the vast majority of songs that were about our own team. Find it fucking weird how much a team like United with their history sing about us. Constantly. Every game.
That Forest song has been sung at Anfield for years
Wrong. It’s sang most weeks. fitz07, grow up, it’s a global game. Wools ffs, try and explain that to China/USA/Australia. Fucking dick.
*sung
If you try to look at it from a non reds perspective it get’s even weirder.
I’ve seen reds derided for coming out to greet the team in the run in in 13/14, like people online howling with laughter cause we sang “we’re going to win the league” and did our best to make as good and positive an atmosphere as possible, what the fuck is so funny about that? Yes we didn’t win the league (something that gets pointed out to me allot, like I’m not fucking aware we didn’t) but I just can’t understand why anyone would mock a football fan of any team for having some hope and doing their part to help the team, you only have to listen to what our lads said when they saw this to know they got something from it, the crowd v City that day had to have helped the lads on the pitch.
A great bit of writing, I echo the sentiments here. I thought some of the Plymouth fans were bang out of order. You expect it from the Mancs and the Chelseas of this world, not Plymouth. Nothing should suprise me anymore with some of the shite thats sung or said from opposing supporters. Support your team, sing about your own players names instead.
“Well, one day soon it is going to be ‘our year’ and it’s going to hurt.”
Beautiful
What I hate is how our fans always respond to the Steve Gerrard Gerrard/ Demba Ba chant with our version of the Steve Gerrard Gerrard chant.
Seriously, just ignore the twats!
Its when you hear this from people from Newcastle or Yorkshire etc that it really sort of grates. Unemployment jibes, often from someone who is probably further down the career and pay ladder then myself from these economic powerhouses. They suffered just as much as us historically with de-industrialisation or pit closures yet they have picked this up, not just at the match from Newcastle fans but elsewhere in person due to a chance encounter when outside the city, abroad usually. Between English people there is no solidarity, Ive rarely had this or any other similar jibe thrown at me from Scots or Irish, Welsh even just the English. We’re not English we are Scouse is not just a punchline, there is a bit of truth in it for me.
I actually live abroad now and there is a similar town to Liverpool – Ostrava which has suffered with de-industrialisation and pit closures – there are sport and even hooligan rivalries between this and other cities but there isnt the same lack of solidarity that the English have, they dont have the fact that they seen tough times due to certain economic circumstances throws at them as an insult. Its something Ive never been able to grasp about the English, the divide and conquer even between places in the same boat.
Great post Graeme mate. Spot on analysis. Especially the the stuff about lack of solidarity in England. Half of my family is Scottish (I’m English) and you’re totally right, they are so different to the English towards each other and even to us scousers (we were talking about this very topic at Xmas).
Maybe my family is biased as they have scouse relatives, but they (and other randoms I get chatting to and meet whilst up in Ayr) feel a lot of solidarity with scousers, and are very fond of us as they, like us, have suffered through Thatcher, de-industrialisation etc so there’s a connection through experience.. There’s a genuine camaraderie between us it feels like. Just little things like Scots I barely know try to get me to move up with them permanently to escape the Tories and Right Wing England when I moan about how much I am disillusioned and disappointed in respect to what England and English people has/have become.
On the whole the average Liverpudlian and average Scot share very similar political views (both very Left Wing) from my experience so I think this is also why it feels like there’s more solidarity etc with them. My family really don’t like Southerners though. They seem genuinely to believe that everybody south of Stafford is a certified Tory, I try to teach them different but they won’t have it.
Its such a shame that there doesn’t seem to be anything like this between the likes of Scousers and Geordies or working class cockneys etc who have a lot more in common economically and politically than not. Maybe then we would hear a lot less of these boring, inaccurate hate the scousers chants at the games.
I’m from Cannock about 8 miles south of Stafford and I can assure you’re family we’re not all tories lol
It is, its just the English. Dont think Ive heard it from Scots or Irish, generally with these people we tend to gravitate together and have similar mindsets Glaswegians or people from Cork I tend to just hit it off with. But I could be in a pub or sportsbar and someone English would pipe up with one of these jibes. Alright Mr original from some one horse town. Might of told you the best or cheapest pubs or clubs and dos and donts if you were nice , but as it is I hope you go and get ripped off and sold dodgy drugs from some iffy character on the square.
And this is how the Tories and establishment have managed to carve it up for themselves, the north divided amongst themselves or now against Poles or Romanians while they just take the piss.
My advice is ignore abuse because it’s mainly an inadequate minority element who are fuelled by envy and jealousy, we have a team, a ground, a manager, happy supporters and a city in 2017 to be proud of. Don’t rise to their baiting if they aim low make sure we look higher. ( Stevie G represents us so that is disrespectful to him but I’m sure he knows by now it’s best to let it wash over, it’s a pity these thickos are not more concerned with giving support to their own team !)
“Anyone who has lived or worked away from the city will have encountered the lazy, downright fucking insulting stereotypes we’re expected to laugh along with and take on the chin.”
Tabloid culture. Why bother reading anything intelligent or thinking for yourself, when you can absorb 2D prejudice straight from the Express/Mail/S*n/Telegraph?
If you’ve ever wondered why England voted for Brexit…
PS I’m Irish; well used to “thick Paddies” stereotyping.
I’ve been to Plymouth and it’s crap.
Anyway I completely agree with all of this. I’m not from Liverpool (though I’ve been loads of times and it’s great) but for smaller clubs, and they are always smaller clubs, we’re a big scalp. That’s why when LFC go to these nonsensical, tin-pot, leave voting, pits of despair they like to sing songs that they’ve heard Chelsea fans sing on the telly. In the same accent I might add.
The poor reaction to YNWA on Wednesday might have something to do with the fact that a lot of the Plymouth “fans” in the 17000 strong throng last Wednesday are only part time followers of the Pilgrims.
A good majority of that crown probably only consider Plymouth to be their second team, who only turn up to Home Park for the big occasions.
The rest of the time they probably identify as Chelsea, Arsenal and United fans (or Liverpool for that matter). Hence the antipathy to LFC.
Not an excuse, just might help explain the idocy somewhat.
Very good point, suspect there was a fair few in the Plymouth end who were trying to explain but it’s difficult trying to explain simple concepts to some people. Just look at Brexit and Trump. Some people revel in idiocy.
Plymouth supporters are shit, they think they have the right to play in the championship, but they aren’t good enough. Get real Argyle, same league as Exeter.
Rafapologist makes a very valid point, having lived in Devon all my life I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who solely supports one of our local teams. I can guarantee that there were many, many people at the game on Wednesday who went along in the hopes of seeing LFC lose. If you look on the PAFC Facebook page, on the whole, real Argyle supporters have been thoroughly lovely about LFC and supporters. Many of their supporters have been really disappointed to miss out on tickets to people who otherwise wouldn’t bother turning up. Great article though, spot on.
To add to that, I may not be a Scouser, but my mum is Welsh and I support Wales in the football and the rugby, real empathy over the tired, boring stereotypes.
Could not have said this any better myself! Excellent piece of work!
Having been taken to the match by an argyle fan I can report back the following. 1.The booing was down to unremitting thickness. I could see the same people who had been booing start clapping YNWA when the penny dropped. 2. They sing ‘you’re just a grim northern city’ to every team that come to home park-including Exeter! 3. Your spot on about them resenting the fact that what should be their fan base have chosen to support other clubs like Liverpool. On population alone and as a one club city Plymouth should have a bigger fan base than Liverpool.
This is a brilliant post and unerringly accurate.
However as someone who heard large portions of the Kop sing “we can see you holding hands” at Brighton, its worth remembering that we arent above this level of boring sterotyping.
Jesus, how long ago was that? The point was that the stereotypes are boring because they ceased to have any truth or relevance a long time ago.
I didn’t hear it sung when we played them at home in the cup a few years ago, so I’m assuming you’re going back to the 80’s.
Who cares what people sing about us? Scouse jokes? Who cares it’s been happening for years so people should be used to it by now, it’s clearly not going to stop even though the city is thriving and a millions miles away from the Liverpool of the 70s and 80s.
As for the mancs songs referring to Hillsborough- can you blame them? We sang Munich for years and have divvies supporting us that still do so what do you expect- you can’t have it both ways.
They sing about us every game and again that’s not going to change (we must have been bastards to them in the 70s and 80s). I take it as a compliment.
I was surprised we took a banner like that but LFC is different, some clubs just think we are self pitying again but it was a nice touch – i wonder if they knew the fans would boo YNWA after it they’d still take it?
But anti-scouse songs never bother me it’s mostly jealousy from all others and if they’ve got nothing else to sing about good luck to them. As for Neil Warnock what a bullhead- just buzz off people like that
Sing this one instead of parrotting their shite:
Steven Gerrard WAS our Captain
Steven Gerrard is a Red
Steven Gerrard WORKS for Liverpool
He’s a scouser born and bred.
People don;t like Liverpool fans because they are loudmouthed and arrogant. They have never ever done anything wrong. They practice the art of DARVO to perfection and think everyone is jealous of them. Their entire fanbase seethes hatred for anyone who isn’t them. You would have to have a heart of stone NOT to despise them. You certainly need one to support them. They are the most frightening supporters I have ever encountered. Evidence? Read the replies here.