FANS who believe in the transfer committee versus Brendan Rodgers recruitment schism tend to use that narrative as yet more evidence of Rodgers’ failures, especially when it comes to judging a player, writes PAUL LITTLE. But if you are of that mind, could I suggest you don’t use Tiago Ilori as an example of the manager’s “inferiority”?
Ilori is the latest player being used as a stick to beat Brendan Rodgers with by those who would like to see him out of the job. The Portuguese is apparently another example of the manager’s dismissal or mishandling of transfer committee picks, proof that Rodgers is a poor judge of players with something of a chip on his shoulder.
For me, the Rodgers versus transfer committee narrative is one of the most annoying and tiresome doing the rounds among Liverpool fans. Perhaps it is true. Perhaps there is a two-headed transfer policy at Anfield. Maybe I’m just being naive, but I do wonder. No one seems to have very hard evidence, but plenty seem convinced.
For what it’s worth, I don’t really care. The club recruited the players — all involved have a stake. Given FSG’s approach to business, allowing such a state of affairs sees unlikely to me. If they have, then they carry the blame – unless they believe in the idea of “creative conflict.”
But then I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before. But if there is such a split, then for my money, Ilori is not a particularly strong candidate for showing that the committee is a better judge of quality than the manager and that Liverpool are being very foolish in allowing him go to Villa on loan (with an option to make it a permanent move).
Put very simply, if the young defender is the major defensive talent many would have me believe, then why did only Sunderland and Aston Villa make a move for him this summer despite so many scouts watching him play? And why, if everyone is so convinced of his ability, did they only make loan offers?
There are over 100 scouts booked in at the Merseyrail Community Stadium for tonight's mini Merseyside derby between Everton and Liverpool
— Southport FC (@southport_fc) August 19, 2015
With the transfer window closed, it should trouble those making a case for the player and the committee that those who seem to agree with their analysis of Ilori include Dick Advocaat and Tim Sherwood. But like Brendan Rodgers, they really aren’t convinced by what they have seen so far. Hence the loan offers. Hardly a ringing endorsement is it?
Cards on the table, I’ve never seen Ilori play. Maybe he is magic. There are some who have watched him at Granada and Bordeaux, where in two seasons he has played a grand total of 21 league games (recurring injuries haven’t helped but may inform Rodgers’ doubts), and feel he has something to offer.
Others will point to his showing in the summer’s Under-21 European Championships as evidence of his quality, while forgetting that a tournament that saw Emre Can look like a cross between Mattheus and Beckenbauer rather than the conundrum he’s increasingly becoming at Anfield is probably not the best measure of a player’s true ability.
READ: Liverpool loanees – The Reds on borrowed time
But frankly, let’s be real here, Liverpool’s professional football people will also have been monitoring Ilori over the last two years, and to be honest, I have a feeling they are likely to have a better handle on the lad than Joe on Twitter.
Maybe Ilori is the real deal or will be. I’m not saying he is or he isn’t — although having turned 22, you’d like to think he’d have shown more at this stage.
But using him to launch attacks on Rodgers seems at best ill-judged for me (even I could suggest better targets). If indeed Ilori was a transfer committee pick, then I think there should be more focus on how they came to pay £7million of the club’s money for a kid who has figured highly only on the radars of clubs likely to be in the Premier League relegation dogfight again this season.
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Pics: David Rawcliffe-Propaganda Photo
Rodgers first signings at the club,Borini and Allen.Not exactly marquee signings.Assaidi,Sahin,Alberto,Aspas,Cissokho all followed with the exception of Sturridge and Coutinho,it isn’t good.
Transfer committee was introduced possibly because Rodgers didn’t want to work under a DoF and so we recruit players under a means of consensus and not dictatorship.But certain players seem to be more favoured than others,the classic example that Lovren even as bad as it gets will always start ahead of Sakho if fit.
It’s a terrible set up,we buy average players for ridiculous amounts then seem to realise they’re shit and loan out or sell on for a loss,we even buy players that don’t fit our system if indeed we do have a system of play and have to play them out of position.How many number 10s do we need.
Also I have never known a club such as ourselves to waste so much money regardless of manager or transfer committee,it truly is fucking shocking and the worst thing is we never seem to learn and just carry on as if we have money to burn.For all the £7m gambles we took that never paid off we could have signed proven quality,provided they would accept about £70m a week wages.
What’s the point of this article? You’ve never seen him play.
That one obviously went over your head…
The point of this article was never going to have anything to do with Ilori. It’s this ridiculous Rodgers debate, and the pointing out of fans on the “wrong” side of it that TAW insists on perpetuating.
Never mind questioning the club’s transfer dealings, whatever the case may be on who has final cut on the squad list. Never mind raising questions over spending 7 million pounds on a player only for him to never play a single competitive minute. Or buying a 20 million, 20 year old winger only for him to be played out of position, never allowed to complete 90 minutes of game time, let alone, do that over a course of a significant amount of games, and after a single season be sent out on loan to a Turkish EL side.
No. The real problem are the fans that have lost confidence in Brendan.
Well, I, myself, am on the very edge with BR. But, even if I wasn’t, and I had all the belief in the world that BR bringing us trophies or CL qualification is just around the corner, that it’s a matter of players gelling, or Sturridge coming back, or whatever else that’s currently missing, I cannot understand how it’s this hard for people to accept that BR deserves the criticism and mistrust he’s on the receiving end of. I’m not saying there aren’t folk that have been out to get him for the stupidest of reasons, or that people causing Lovren to shut down his social media accounts are not imbeciles, but all this labeling legitimate footballing criticisms as new sticks to beat BR with by the people who’ve been out to get him ever since he hung that picture of himself in Being Liverpool is beyond moronic.
Poor attacking displays for the sake of defensive solidity – new stick to beat him with. Now it’s 2 in 4, and we’re pinning our hopes on Sturridge returning in banging form from over a year long multiple number of injuries.
Ilori and Markovic going out on loan – sticks to beat him with. Well, now our width consists of a 19 year old and a left back. And as for Ilori, if playing Brad freaking Jones was the answer to Mignolet’s poor form, is it that much to expect that after all that BR insists on having Lovren put us through, a 7 million pound young international prospect is at least to be given a few minutes worth of action in a Liverpool shirt?
Now, as for the really legitimate sticks: Last season was dreadful, and there’s been little so far in this season to suggest that any real progress has been made, both in an attacking and defensive sense. BR gets given credit for the semifinals, but everyone seems to fail to mention that he couldn’t set his team up to defeat fucking Aston Villa in order to save our season. Instead, he panicked at 1-1, brought on Balotelli, and ruined our greatest ever player’s possibility of an epic last game for the club. Instead, what Stevie got was a 2-9 aggregate in his Anfield and Premier League goodbyes. It’s not just the four games, it’s a full season of them + the four games.
How it is so hard to understand that some may be of an opinion that BR isn’t the right man for our club, I just can’t understand. Plus, most of the people commenting negative about BR on TAW (their readership for whose benefit I assume these articles are being written) seem to always back their “fuming” opinions with legitimate arguments – a trait rarely seen from the members of the Brendan Rodgers Defense League. Still, not a week goes by without at least two articles on how every fan that wouldn’t mind a managerial change at Liverpool FC is a knobhead – and probably one of those threatening Lovren, or being pissed about a Joe Allen who hasn’t seen a minute of play this season, all part of the same bunch they are, there’s absolutely no middle ground (or at least TAW has no intention of acknowledging that and maybe coming up with some content for that section of the fanbase).
P.S. What’s with all these subtle digs at Can? Another pattern being developed in the TAW narrative. (Another one, I strongly disagree with. Anyone seen Germany v. Poland? Not only an excellent game of football, but a pretty decent debut of Emre Can for the current World Cup winners.)
Velimir I enjoy your posts but why are you wasting your breath or ink or typing energy or whatever it is. These one sided articles defending Rodgers and denigrating those who dare question him will continue unabated despite your protests. The lack of self awareness amongst the contributors is beyond parody. So far we’ve had around 7 articles on that theme in little over two weeks as opposed to only one that raises any real questions. Personally I wouldn’t even mind if the articles addressed the actual objections rather than heroically knocking down the straw man arguments that they invariably do. It is intellectually dishonest and does nothing at all for their credibility but they just don’t get it. I remember describing this site as having some of the best writing on Liverpool but that seems such a long time ago. It has gone down massively in my estimation with some of the stuff getting churned out amounting to little more than crude propaganda.
Sorry, I promised myself I wouldn’t bother posting but there you go. Doesn’t matter anyway, it’ll either be ignored or get an ultradefensive response as is the norm.
Mate, it sounds like you need to stop reading David Icke books and open your eyes.
There is no TAW narrative. I think it’s fairly clear how it works. If someone’s got something to say they write about it and submit it. I’m sure some of the group get prompted to write about topical issues due to the need for content but certainly don’t get fed the context. This isn’t a North Korean govt website.
From listening to so many podcasts I think we all know a bit about the personalities of the contributors. Do they strike you as people who’ll speak the party line rather than their feelings? Again, I’m sure they’re told not to touch on certain things to avoid circular discussions but do you believe someone says ‘this is our thoughts on this subject so don’t deviate’. It’s laughable.
One final thing, I think what you’re missing is the majority of TAW are fairly balanced. Turning every aspect of the clubs fortunes into a for and against Rodgers argument would be short sighted and quite boring. But, people have felt the need to bring it up and the reason is simple. The anti Rodgers fans have become so vocal that they’re endangering our season. More so than Lovren. They’ve already ramped the pressure up on the team. I saw next weeks match described as a mustn’t lose game for Rodgers. They’re also ruining people’s enjoyment of supporting LFC. Whether it’s at the match or on social media. It’s relentless. Look, in May a decision will be made on Rodgers. We understand some don’t want him. We know he’s never won anything. We know he says stupid things to boost his ego and we know he makes some unfathomable decisions. Saying it every day is not going to bring the decision forward. Therefore it serves no purpose. I think people feel that needs saying.
You’re trying to make me out to be some conspiracy theorist. I’m not suggesting there are shadowy figures dictating what podcasts and articles should be about. What I’m suggesting is that the majority of TAW contributors are on the same page in regards to what I’ve been posting about and am against – this, I would call it a crusade against what they perceive to be RodgersOut fans, the ones that keep you from enjoying LFC games. It’s too much. It’s indiscriminate, as in anyone with a criticism (i.e. we shouldn’t have sold such and such, or we were poor against Stoke & Bournemouth) is a raging lunatic.
“FANS who believe in the transfer committee versus Brendan Rodgers recruitment schism tend to use that narrative as yet more evidence of Rodgers’ failures”
“Ilori is the latest player being used as a stick to beat Brendan Rodgers with by those who would like to see him out of the job.”
I interpret these quotes my way, you interpret them differently. I think you’re wrong. Sorry.
As for the Can narrative. There’s an unnecessary little dig in this very article and the podcast after WH focused so much attention on Can somehow being one of the tactical failures that led to that embarrassment, judging him on 45 minutes during which all of them were terrible, and frankly, IMO, Can did little wrong (I don’t remember the replays, but you could maybe make a case that he should’ve been around that Skrtel header that led to their 1st goal). There’s a consensus on a lot of the shows that Can is somehow a liability at holding mid, but we haven’t seen nearly enough of him there to conclude that (you’re getting on a lot of fans for drawing conclusions on our season based on 4 games. How many did Can play in that position?). Again, I’m not talking conspiracy theories, it’s obvious a majority of TAW contributors share that opinion and having the platform to express it, they’re creating a narrative around the issue by doing so. Feel free to disagree. I’ll think you’re wrong. Sorry.
As for your supporting enjoyment being ruined, again, I’m sorry about it, but I have to say, I think there’s such an easy fix for it. So easy in fact, I’d have trouble trying to explain it to you. I guess, there’s just something in my head (and it’s not agreement, before you go there) that makes ignoring the kind of internet activity I assume is annoying you, so so easy. I’m just not bothered with it. And you should try and relax a little. It’s the internet, it’s the wild wild west in terms of expressing opinion. Don’t let it get to you. Calibrate a filter in your brain, and when you see the type of mental comment (again, the ones I assume bother you), just feel sorry for that person and move on. Find a more intelligent person to converse with, there are plenty of them here in these comments, you just got to move past the fact that they may have a different opinion to yours.
As for the games, to tell you the truth, I can understand the negative atmosphere, it’s been a year plus of this shit. Booing that performance at the weekend, I’m fine with it. Leaving early, not so much, but West Ham are destroying you all game, and then you’re suppose to sit there so you could see that third goal (I don’t know how you saw it, but talk about giving up, that looked like the dying minutes of a Sunday League game, Sakho just walks it into the box, around our CBs and places the slowest of balls in the back of the net). And our attacking intent? We even leveled out on players on the pitch and there was nothing. All I’m saying is it’s a two way street. Give some to get some.
I would make a bigger fuss about the things that ruin my own enjoyment of supporting the team, and that’s games like West Ham, or the 85 mins of Stoke on opening day, or sending out Markovic on loan to Turkey. But that’s just me.
Finally, as for the May decision, I agree with you, you should give your manager the full season, with only the very few disastrous exceptions to that stance. But, it’s understandable for others to have different levels of expectations, or to be fed up with trophy-less, European QF-less years. As long as it’s an intelligent and non-malicious argument that is made about it, I’m not going to get on anyone’s back for it, and I definitely wouldn’t write over 20 articles on the subject. I’d just focus on football.
I also gotta add, and it just came to me while writing that last paragraph, if on Thursday after next, our starting XI is filled with the likes of Kents, Brannagans, Chirivellas and Clearys, I’d sack Brendan the Friday after. I really feel that way and the point I’m trying to make is there are footballing reasons to be unhappy over the management of our club, and they’re perfectly valid to be had. Sorry if it ruins your experience of being an LFC supporter.
Mate, when I insinuate you’re a conspiracy theorist it’s because you use terms such as TAW on a crusade against RodgersOut out fans. I’ve got a picture in my head of them running around Liverpool with swords seeking their readers that don’t agree with them. And while we’re talking daft theories, do you honestly believe that anyone has a crusade against someone who says we were poor against Bournemouth or Stoke? I’m sorry mate but you haven’t grasped the situation at all.
I don’t think you’ve grasped the article either and you’re certainly right that we interpret it differently. It’s not an attack on you or the RodgersOut fans (to use your term for want of a better phrase). It tries to evaluate whether their claims are justified which is a completely different article. This is how it works mate, you state the case you want to dispel i.e. that Ilori has become the latest stick to beat Rodgers with and then you say why you disagree. He’s pointed out where he thinks the questions should be asked. That’s all mate. I can’t really see why there’s paranoia that it’s an attack on the people he thinks are using it as a stick. With no game, this has been one of the hot topics of debate in the last few days. Would you expect no TAW writer to have anything to say on the topic?
Regarding Can, there you go again. Creating a narrative? It’s pretty simple. Can was poor against West Ham. He looks good but occasionally he reminds us that he’s a young, inexperienced player. What is it you want mate, give everyone a clue. You want them to say Rodgers is poor but you’re not allowed to say Can is poor. I think it’s only fair you give them a list letting them what they should be thinking about each individual. You’re looking too much into it all. People just say what they think. There’s no Politburo meeting on a Monday to set the agenda.
Look mate, you said you don’t like sprouts my advice wouldn’t be as ridiculous as don’t eat food then. Fuckin hell. I like the internet. Until recently it was a place I went to read articles, debate issues with people, get the post match reaction etc. It’s being eroded because there’s so many people obsessed with Rodgers who constantly bombard the sites I visit that sane people who want to discuss other things are put off contributing to the circus. Don’t tell me to stop using the internet because I’m not enjoying the continuous bile. I don’t know who you think you are holding views like that.
Regarding the match. You may be happy to take your anger to every match but for me, football is something I enjoy. I pay a lot of money for it too. If you take a girl to the cinema and the bloke in the seat next you sits there shouting ‘this film is shit’ for the duration, is that gonna ruin your enjoyment. Well, it ruins mine at the match and I’m angry about it and not gonna just accept that’s how it is. It’s out of order. You can understand it and respect it. I can’t. You’ve completely forgot that football is pleasurable. It’s good fun, or used to be. Oh, and for your information. I didn’t like the West Ham result either. I can, however, dislike 2 things at once i.e. the result and the miserable fans (and don’t try and twist it that it was that game that made them miserable. Every Liverpool fan was miserable after that. I’m talking about the career doom and gloomsters). So, please avoid patronising me that the result is the thing to get annoyed over, not the fact that my Anfield experience is being ruined. My brain can handle both.
Ok, the decision in May. Again, I think you’ve missed the point. I think there’s a pattern emerging here. It’s not down to what we think. FSG make the decisions. Anyone remotely aware of what goes on at the club will know Rodgers has been backed with his players and his backroom staff. Although I don’t like stupid expressions like year zero, that’s exactly what it is. He’s had 4 games in their eyes. He’s got the season to show what he can do. So, your trophy less argument is just bullshit. It’s been said a thousand times. We’re all aware of it but because we know Rodgers has the season there’s no point bringing it up every day. And this gets to the crux of it. Saying it every day won’t make it come true. They need to stop embarrassing themselves.
For the record, I’ve got little love for Rodgers. I feel devoid of opinion on him. I’m waiting to see how the season goes. If he does well then brilliant. If he doesn’t then he goes. I’m gonna try and enjoy it in the meantime. Anyway, no need to apologise mate, it’s not the fact that “there are footballing reasons to be unhappy over the management of our club” that ruin my experience of football. You misunderstand again. It’s the people who make the same point over and over again, then get paranoid that people are out to get them for making them, then make up conspiracy theories in a desperate attempt to justify their paranoia.
I didn’t get your point. You didn’t get mine. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. From the moment I clicked post on my previous comment, I regretted the wasted time.
Your TAW fandom is more than obvious (for reference, see any comment section to everything ever posted on this website), so congratulations on another gold star in your report card. I’m sure they’ll have you on a podcast any day now.
You take me for a conspiracy theorist. I take you for a sycophant.
So goodbye and though I have a strong feeling I’ll end up having way more fun than you will, whether BR stays or goes, do enjoy the season and good luck in your fight against other fellow supporters.
Can we just get one thing straight. The reason for my post was only for you. As you’re a Liverpool fan I’m guessing you’re ok really and I wanted to try and dispel your conspiracy theories to try and stop you from embarrassing yourself further.
Yes it is silly to to write an entire article trying to back up the manager but based on a player you’ve never watched. Mind you he only states that 7 paragraphs of 11 into it! Rodgers has repeatedly stated that he has the final say on transfers so the committee/Rogers debate isn’t be the issue here. It was Rodgers himself who spoke glowingly about securing the club’s defensive future for the next 10 years when Sakho and Ilori were bought in 2013. How is he progressing with that?
Exactly.
Feck me, after the abject capitulation of the last 12 games of last season, culminating in the 6-1, and this season’s epic 0-3 to West Ham, we’ve got enough sticks to build a fucking cathedral, let alone beat Rodgers with. The Rodgers crowd, otoh, needs use strawman posts like this to make ever more flailing defences of him.
Why didn’t anyone other than Villa and Sunderland want him? I guess for the same reasons none of them wanted Coutinho, or Lallana, or Henderson, or any of our other players other than Sterling. Wasn’t Markovic his? How come he wound up in Turkey instead of the PL?
£70k not £70m,Christ if I was offered that I’d retire after a month,mind you with Ayre as a negotiator I suppose anything is possible.
The “how Rodgers treats his own signings vs the committee’s signings” debate is over. We know he does everything he can to protect, give multiple chances to and play to the strengths of his guys (Lallana/Lovren) and does the exact opposite for the committee’s guys (Markovic/Sakho). We know he’s been playing politics for years. Proof:
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/premierleague/article4523097.ece
https://mobile.twitter.com/lfcza/status/630968228991397888
http://www.empireofthekop.com/2015/08/14/tony-barrett-names-five-rodgers-signings-four-transfer-committee-signings-and-they-make-total-sense/
Rodgers’ apologists who argued against this notion were, are and continue to be wrong. They are worse than “naive” as the article states – they are wilfully ignorant. It was clear to anyone who would open their eyes last season that this was the case. It was and still is blantantly obvious, especially when it comes to Sakho vs Lovren. But people didn’t want to admit it. They seem to support Rodgerspool, not Liverpool.
Now they are reduced to “I don’t really care.”
Paul, if you “don’t really care” that the manager in charge of our club has a bias against better players because he did not sign them, and this then has an impact on results, how on earth can you say you support Liverpool and only have LFC’s best interests in your thoughts? Curious as to know what your line of thinking is.
Thanks
Assuming we take Tony Barrett’s article at face value, it doesn’t constitute any sort of proof for the case you are trying to make.
It basically says that this season Rodgers is selecting the team based on who he judges to be the best players. It explicitly says that what is happening is not a power struggle.
Sorry Greame, does this mean you are accusing Rodgers of not being able to see that Sakho is a better player than Lovren? Because that’s an enormous statement from you on the managers ability, or lack thereof. I don’t even think his worst critics would suggest Rodgers is so stupid he couldn’t see that Sakho is vastly better.
Both just got dropped from their national teams by the way. One got dropped because he isn’t playing, the other got dropped because of how he is playing. One was replaced by a £30m centre back who plays for Man City, the other replaced by a £4m centre back who plays in Ukraine. But none of this matters because you actually believe Rodgers is picking what is in his mind is his 11 best players.
I was simply saying Barrett’s article did not support the case you were making that Rodgers is treating committee signings harshly, and is making selection decisions for non-football reasons.
I have no idea who Rodgers thinks is the better player. Personally I prefer Sakho, but I don’t think it is the night and day difference that many people see it as. He is prone to the odd defensive lapse himself, although has been caught out less, and like Lovren sometimes takes risks in possession that I would rather he didn’t.
Rodgers might have wanted to rehabilitate Lovren and build his confidence early in the season, Rodgers might feel Lovren has more leadership qualities, Rodgers might feel Skrtel and Lovren operate better together. Rodgers might have felt that with Sakho’s wife expecting a baby around the start of the season and being in Paris for the birth, he would plan to play Lovren for the first block of games. Who knows.
In any case, I imagine Rodgers sees Sakho making a significant contribution this season. Liverpool would not be offering him an extension on better terms if he saw him as a bit part player, or wanted to bomb him out.
So this is a rebuttal of the know nothings who are upset at Rodger’s for letting Ilori go, and yet the writer has no knowledge of the player, so is in that regard, yet another know nothing.
Well I know something, and that something is that Brendan Rodgers has spent over £300 million on bringing in ‘his’ players – yet the best LFC can hope for is the Europa League come Cup thing and avoiding getting tonked for six by the global football powerhouse that is Stoke FC.
Rodger’s football reputation = Luis Suarez, and with him gone – so has any chance of Liverpool winning the League or qualifying for the real European competition.
Then irony of ironies – Suarez was signed by Kenny. And Sterling signed by Rafa. Where do Brendan’s pick’s rank when put alongside them?
Ok, enough already, please, we get it. That’s three articles in three days from Melissa Reddy, Mike Nevin, and now Paul Little basically about fans short term thinking and to stop blaming Rodgers. How about a little variety? Or at least space out your similarly themed articles. Really enjoyed Gibbons loan piece. I don’t mind articles I disagree with, I lie a good debate. But I’d rather read a case study about grass growing speed at Melwood than another “give Rodgers a chance” article.
Fact is Rodgers lost a lot of credibility between all the transfer disasters, questionable player decisions, and devastating losses since May 2014. You can keep writing an article a day about how things aren’t his fault, but the only way he’s getting support back is by winning.
I understand it isn’t only has fault, but we can’t fire the owners or the transfer committee, and we have to be close to out of players we can loan away. (Didn’t realize we had the 2nd most behind Chelsea, thanks JG)
And stop with the “Rodgers doesn’t deserve it” or “it’s not fair to him”. That guy already received more money than most of us will earn over a lifetime to win football matches. No one cares what he deserves or is fair. The only question should be is he the best man for the job.
I’ve no objection to yet another piece defending Rodgers, but this is pretty desperate. The debate as such revolves around a bizarre and expensive transfer ‘strategy’ that does the club no good whatsoever. It doesn’t really matter who wanted Ilori, the point is he is yet another signing who has either turned out to be a complete waste of money either because he is not good enough or we cannot give him games. What is obvious is that our committe with Rodgers as final arbiter has no clear picture of the direction the club is headed for – if any direction that is. Ilori has been badly served by joining us and must be wondering what he’s done wrong to go from securing the club’s future “for 10 years” to being an unwanted, unplayed squad player in just two years. Whether it’s Rodgers fault or not, messing with another young lad’s career is unacceptable and does not reflect well on the club.
All clubs make a hash of transfers, though the Illori one has grated with me particularly, but not because we look to have washed our hands of a player who we thought was worth 7 million just two years ago, but because we sold him to Villa. I hate Villa, and i’m sick of them taking points off us, and i was hoping that signing Benteke, might finally send them down. But thats my own opinion.
As for the transfers, just looking at the Rodgers players signed (not including the new lads for this year) i kind of have it, a bit like this (obviously, this isn’t a science, just a couple of thoughts, because i had a bit of time to spare)
The Good (First team regulars / more or less)
Daniel Sturridge Star signing- worth 40m+
Philippe Coutinho Star signing worth 50m+
Simon Mignolet Regular player – worth every penny
Mamadou Sakho Regular player – worth every penny
Alberto Moreno Regular player – has resale value
Emre Can Feels like a bargain, still to prove himself.
Adam Lallana Definitely overpaid but has resale value and has talent.
The Bad
Luis Alberto On Loan – probable loss (3 mill ?)
Iago Aspas Sold for a 2million loss
Tiago Ilori Probable substantial loss (5 mill ? )
Rickie Lambert Sold for a 2 million loss
Borini Sold for a loss ( 3-5 mill ? )
Assaidi Sold for a 3 million profit
Yesil On Loan, but cost buttons.
The Ugly – (some uglier than others)
Lazar Markovic – If we sell him, likely to be for a hefty loss (-8 mill ? )
Mario Balotelli – Complete waste of talent and money, but loss might still be mitigated if he has a good season. (-6 mill ? )
Lovren – way way overpaid, but he is still a first team regular, (for better or worse), and strangely he does still have resale value, but we’d probably lose 12 mill ?
I’ve left Origi off, as he’s only just arrived, and who knows whether he’ll get a game or not, but he has good resale value.
Overall, i don’t think Rodgers has done too badly in his transfers, though some could still go either way. Though, whether or not other players were available at the time that we could have spent the money on instead, is also a consideration. We’ve chased a few players, Salah, Willian, Sanchez, etc etc, and they preferred ($$$$$) other clubs, so we have to take what we can get sometimes. If you can’t buy established players, you have to take a gamble on youth, which is (was) FSG’s stated aim a couple of years ago wasn’t it ?
Apologies for the long post.
Not sure how Sakho, Moreno or Can can be classed as good transfers… At the moment Sakho is being kept out by one of the worst defenders I have seen, a 18yo CB plays in front of Moreno & Can is a player with no position thanks to his complete lack of lateral movement.
None are trusted my the manager yet we spent 30-40m on the trio.
I suppose it depends on how you qualify a ‘good transfer’. If the player is ‘in, or about’ the first team, or has played consistently, and still has resale value, i’d class them as good transfers. ie., we’ve gotten something from them, and we could still sell them on if we have to. Whether or not, we could have spent the money on someone else (if they’re willing to come) is immaterial.
All three players still have room for a lot of improvement, and i’d warrant
if we sold all three players now, we’d pretty much get our money back.
The reason that the heat on Brendan is being turned up by what seems an increasing amount of reds fans is quite simply the two men they would rather see in the job (a German and a Italian) are without a job, if these were not hanging around like vultures then I honestly do think there would be less people losing their heads about this stuff.
With regards to Ilori my problem with the loan in the option to buy clause without it great premier league centre back experience providing he plays, he has been given the ‘number 2’ so I think that will happen btw.
Its the if he does well we have to sell him which doesn’t sit well with me.
With regards to Rodgers and sticks I personally have a biased opinion to the German (love the lad to bits) so I can understand the arming of reasons against Brendan. It is true of the fanbase on the whole at the moment if your vocally against the manager at the moment you do get pelted with the same old dross, as long as it doesn’t make its way into the ground on match day its fine with me to state you opinion.
At a rate of every second article, one of this nature pops up. People seem to want to forget that there are fanatics on both sides of the argument, pro rodgers fans who will hurl every insult in the book at anyone who dares even suggest that everything is not peachy. There are very many of those too, many are on this site, yet no one wants to address those.
Thats why, righty/wrongly people are going to suggest that theres an “agenda” present. That word amuses me. It just seems that way. Like, no matter how cordial, well-reasoned, well thought out your argument is, you are going to be boxed in with idiots.
James Pearce, who has as much access to the club as the next guy, was pretty clear that several of the club’s purchases were not based on Rodgers’ choices. The clearest example is Wilfred Bony. Rodgers wanted him, but the club went for Remy as better value. When that collapsed, the club approached Bony – who fancied the move – but Swansea wanted to the release clause of 19M to be met and Bony wanted over 100k a week in wages.
Bony went on to score more goals in 2014 than anyone else in the PL before being sold to Man City for nearly 30m. It is not hard to imagine him providing the focal point so needed by the team last season, and could easily have meant us swapping positions with Man United.
Instead, according to Pearce, Rodgers was given a straight choice between Balotelli – who stood in stark contrast to the ethos carefully developed the previous season – and a decrepit Eto’o.
As for Illori, I suspect that he is a bit of a Suso. That is, a player that becomes more and more legendary with growing absence, but is proven quite ordinary when actually tested on the pitch. We all love pace and Illori seems to have it in abundance, so the legend has plenty of fertilizer to grow. A good showing at the under-21 tournament providing that much more.
I’m just happy that this summer more or less saw the end of the uncertainty over whether or not the manager wanted the players. I’m sure Rodgers would have liked an elite player or two, but for what it is worth, this is now clearly his squad and his staff behind him. It is up to him to prove himself, but I remain optimistic even after the dire loss to West Ham. Not only do the players look promising, but they look like they can coalesce into a proper collective. And that, more than any individual player, is what brought us to such heights in 13/14.
I’m feeling a bit pissed off with Rogers over the Llori affair and I suspect there’s many thousands more who similarly to me are poised on the for/against Rogers precipice and are thinking why on earth are we not giving this kid an opportunity at full back just as Gomez has been given and blooding them both as tomorrow’s CBs . Any fool who thinks they can spot talent can see the quality of Llori and that surely the only fly in the ointment is his susceptibility to injury and even here maybe he would have been best monitored at home to sort any niggling tendencies before they get out of hand such as those which have plighted Daniel Sturridge for a full season. Whatever way this sorry situation is viewed its clearly piss poor management and is indeed a fucking big baseball bat to beat Rogers with and rightly so, and I’ve been a defender of the manager or should I say sympathiser as is the new default word these days for anyone who shows any support of the manager
As last weeks TAW article prophecissed, if Rogers persists with Lovren as his preferred CB then he is indeed heading towards the gallows.
The likes of Llori would have been perfect defensive cover to blood in the cup competitions, as with plenty of luck there should be plenty of games hence opportunities to coach him and see him at close quarters, especially if we can sustain an extended League and Europa cup run. But then again and on the other hand, based on the evidence of our recent defensive coaching history, the kid is probably far better off running and keep on running as far away from LFC as he can possibly be to save his own playing career FFS!
Ilori was one half of a double signing which was billed as looking after the centre of the Reds defence for the next ten years. These kinds of billings just raised fans’ expectations of the player and that’s unfair on the player. Two years later and he appears to be on his way and we’re left thinking well that’s not what was said two years ago. Joe Allen the same, was billed as the ‘Welsh Xavi’. I like what Allen brings to the side and his absence from the side is noticeable at times but fans comparisons with the great one automatically kick in. Give these players a bit of breathing space. Yes there are expectations of playing for Liverpool but these guys hadn’t even played for the club. It seems to be the modern way to big everything up about the club, it was never the way back. Too much talking off the pitch.
I hope Ilori goes on to have a great career somewhere, but the omens aren’t great.
For all the legitimate criticism that can be laid at club and manager for performance in the transfer market in the last 3 years, they have generally been proved right (or at any rate not proved wrong), with their decisions to move players on, or release them.
Of the players the club has decided to move on, only Jonjo Shelvey has gone on to deliver performances that suggest he could have been worth holding on to. Even then, his tendency to switch off when out of possession means other players would have rightly been picked ahead of him if he had remained, so he has probably been best served by the move to Swansea.
The club might not always make the best judgements when buying players, but the record on outgoings looks pretty good to me.
It’s a damning indictment that the Transfer Committee/Rodgers’ saving grace is that they might buy loads of poor players but they can’t half get rid (even at great expense). How about them recognising a poor player before spending millions on him and claiming they have done good business? Shelvey was signed by Rafa, ironically.
Graeme, Although your comments relating to Shelvey’s concentration levels are accurate it’s also fair to add that young players concentration levels improve with age and experience, where as young attacking players are less exposed to such consequences when compared to positions whereby it is essential to maintain your position in order to prevent the concession of goals, such as in midfield, defence and even more so as a Gk. If we cast our memories back to Rio Ferdinand when he first arrived at MU for £30m, it took Blue Nose quite a while to bring the best out of the lad even though he was given the platform to perform at an earlier age at West Ham under the watchful eye of Harry Rednap (me thinks) for a good 3 years or so. I see no difference in some of the kids we’ve had over the years and I would wager this Llori is a star in the making if he was shown the faith and given playing time. As a loanee at Villa it’s probably unlikely he will get the playing time he needs to flourish their either. In short it paints a pretty bleak canvass for young talented defenders at Liverpool and let’s face facts here they wouldn’t have to be worldies to improve on either Lovren or Skrtel. Another example would be Flanno and the way he suddenly came good after much uncertainty. We need to be patient whilst at the same time give these kids every opportunity to gain the playing time required to make the mistakes and learn from them and The more thought you give it, loan spells to other English clubs do appear to be the best option. However as I stated earlier from now until New Year Llori would have had enjoyed plenty of playing opportunities in the League and Europa Cup games. Any road I still think Rogers is making a big mistake. Yet another one to add to his ever increasing collection.
You might be proved right with Ilori, but I wouldn’t put my money on it.
Even though Ilori has not played a competitive first team game, Rodgers will know a lot more about his capabilities than he did when we bought him, and a lot more than any supporter can expect to know. That doesn’t guarantee he is making the right call, but if he genuinely had the ability of Rio Ferdinand, I doubt it would have gone unnoticed.
A small word to say if your still stuck to the notion of managers scouting and recruiting players you are having yesterdays argument. How many visits do you think Brendan made to Charlton, or there academy last year to watch Joe Gomez. As an aside I was talking to a Liverpool scout at an Under 7’s tournament in Huddersfield this summer…we, as with pretty much all big clubs, have a scouting structure, I’d guess geographically based, feeding our recruitment policy. I’m not arguing that Brendan doesn’t have the last word on targets, but if you want to judge a mans ability to lead a football club on that, okay, but it’s a marginal skill to mind. I mean Ferguson had Pogba and Pique at his own club and couldn’t recognise what great players they were…didn’t stop him being one of the most successful managers in British history. Back Rodgers or don’t (I do), don’t though base it on their transfer record.
I agree Ben, Ferguson (or whoever at United) had some howlers with transfers e.g. Veron, Bellion, Bebe, Kleberson, Tosic, Zaha, Djemba-Djemba, Taibi, the great Gary Birtles and not forgetting Ralph Milne. He was in charge so long that the list is almost endless. The difference is that he got it right with a lot that he could afford disasters as well. After 3 years who would you say have been our worthwhile signings? Coutinho and Sturridge (injuries not withstanding) and…? Henderson and Milner are steady if unspectacular, Clyne and Gomez could be major additions as could Can if Rodgers can decide where to play him. After that it’s threadbare in my opinion. 31 players brought in, £300m spent and only 15 still training at Melwood – makes you think.
I have just found out that Ralph Milne died today. I really regret naming him in my last post and trust that he rests in peace.
Yeah I used to berate Fergie over the signing of Veron too, but how many times do you think Fergie went to Inter Milan (or wherever they got him from) to scout him, to see his running off the ball, his leadership, his movement. I’d guess not once, not least because, with the thousands of task in managing a football club, when would he have time? (also it’d be a press bonanza). No, he trusted some bloke that said, he’s the man for you boss.
I’m not saying recruitment is not important, or that it’s not worthy of scrutiny and criticism – it is, as we saw last season often vital. What I am saying is it’s not the best criteria on which to judge the quality of the man you want to lead your football club.
Also can we have a moratorium on the 300m line. I’d be pretty happy at the idea of us buying David Silva, but if we had to sell Phillipé Coutinho to get him it becomes less appealing.
Frankie. I think it is the fact that so many players were bought, rather than the number that remain that can criticised.
There are actually 18 players bought under Rodgers still at Melwood. These are all included in the 21 man A List for the Europa League Squad. Lucas, Skrtel and Henderson making up the remainder.
So there is basically no more room in the squad for other senior players, although young players who have been with Liverpool two years continuously (Ibe, Rossiter etc.) qualify for the B list.
Ok, so maybe some players could be kept around for the odd domestic cup game, but perhaps this gives some insight in to why Ilori and Markovic, have been pushed out this summer.
“Cards on the table, I’ve never seen Ilori play.”
Don’t write an article on Ilori then.
Unless you have a purely logical rejoinder to the criticisms of Rodgers and the committee and FSG that pertain to Ilori, then just pick another topic to write about.
“Mate, when I insinuate you’re a conspiracy theorist it’s because you use terms such as TAW on a crusade against RodgersOut out fans. I’ve got a picture in my head of them running around Liverpool with swords seeking their readers that don’t agree with them. And while we’re talking daft theories, do you honestly believe that anyone has a crusade against someone who says we were poor against Bournemouth or Stoke? I’m sorry mate but you haven’t grasped the situation at all.
I don’t think you’ve grasped the article either and you’re certainly right that we interpret it differently. It’s not an attack on you or the RodgersOut fans (to use your term for want of a better phrase). It tries to evaluate whether their claims are justified which is a completely different article. This is how it works mate, you state the case you want to dispel i.e. that Ilori has become the latest stick to beat Rodgers with and then you say why you disagree. He’s pointed out where he thinks the questions should be asked. That’s all mate. I can’t really see why there’s paranoia that it’s an attack on the people he thinks are using it as a stick. With no game, this has been one of the hot topics of debate in the last few days. Would you expect no TAW writer to have anything to say on the topic?
Regarding Can, there you go again. Creating a narrative? It’s pretty simple. Can was poor against West Ham. He looks good but occasionally he reminds us that he’s a young, inexperienced player. What is it you want mate, give everyone a clue. You want them to say Rodgers is poor but you’re not allowed to say Can is poor. I think it’s only fair you give them a list letting them what they should be thinking about each individual. You’re looking too much into it all. People just say what they think. There’s no Politburo meeting on a Monday to set the agenda.
Look mate, you said you don’t like sprouts my advice wouldn’t be as ridiculous as don’t eat food then. Fuckin hell. I like the internet. Until recently it was a place I went to read articles, debate issues with people, get the post match reaction etc. It’s being eroded because there’s so many people obsessed with Rodgers who constantly bombard the sites I visit that sane people who want to discuss other things are put off contributing to the circus. Don’t tell me to stop using the internet because I’m not enjoying the continuous bile. I don’t know who you think you are holding views like that.
Regarding the match. You may be happy to take your anger to every match but for me, football is something I enjoy. I pay a lot of money for it too. If you take a girl to the cinema and the bloke in the seat next you sits there shouting ‘this film is shit’ for the duration, is that gonna ruin your enjoyment. Well, it ruins mine at the match and I’m angry about it and not gonna just accept that’s how it is. It’s out of order. You can understand it and respect it. I can’t. You’ve completely forgot that football is pleasurable. It’s good fun, or used to be. Oh, and for your information. I didn’t like the West Ham result either. I can, however, dislike 2 things at once i.e. the result and the miserable fans (and don’t try and twist it that it was that game that made them miserable. Every Liverpool fan was miserable after that. I’m talking about the career doom and gloomsters). So, please avoid patronising me that the result is the thing to get annoyed over, not the fact that my Anfield experience is being ruined. My brain can handle both.
Ok, the decision in May. Again, I think you’ve missed the point. I think there’s a pattern emerging here. It’s not down to what we think. FSG make the decisions. Anyone remotely aware of what goes on at the club will know Rodgers has been backed with his players and his backroom staff. Although I don’t like stupid expressions like year zero, that’s exactly what it is. He’s had 4 games in their eyes. He’s got the season to show what he can do. So, your trophy less argument is just bullshit. It’s been said a thousand times. We’re all aware of it but because we know Rodgers has the season there’s no point bringing it up every day. And this gets to the crux of it. Saying it every day won’t make it come true. They need to stop embarrassing themselves.
For the record, I’ve got little love for Rodgers. I feel devoid of opinion on him. I’m waiting to see how the season goes. If he does well then brilliant. If he doesn’t then he goes. I’m gonna try and enjoy it in the meantime. Anyway, no need to apologise mate, it’s not the fact that “there are footballing reasons to be unhappy over the management of our club” that ruin my experience of football. You misunderstand again. It’s the people who make the same point over and over again, then get paranoid that people are out to get them for making them, then make up conspiracy theories in a desperate attempt to justify their paranoia.”
This.
Right now Brodgers is neither The Messiah nor Lucifer. Let’s just all STFU with the same boring bullshit and see how this season progresses.
Sometimes I pine for pre-internet days.
Great post. You captured my intent with the piece nicely. I’m with Rodgers – I still think he has something to offer. But I recognise plenty don’t. The issue of transfers has been used against the manager – particularly with relation to the transfer committee. I think there’s cause to criticise some of the players recruited and let go (Markovic being a case in point). But I see little evidence to suggest Ilori should be used in this regard