NAME-DROPPING time: I interviewed Jamie Carragher last week for a new project I’m working on. More about that next year, in case you’re interested.
He was considering Istanbul and 2005. A decade later, he still can’t really comprehend how it all happened.
Even with the passing of time, Carragher fights to explain the emotion at the moment Jerzy Dudek saves Andriy Shevchenko’s decisive penalty; the sudden release of an energy that had presumably been stored somewhere considering the cramp he suffered from in extra time. It was as if an exorcism had taken place — seemingly a spirit had to depart his body. He became arms and legs, swinging and running in no particular direction like a wildling before spotting his dad Philly at the front of the crowd where he stopped and embraced.
I suggested to him that without the presence of himself and Steven Gerrard in that team, it probably doesn’t happen for Liverpool, despite the influence of Rafa Benitez in the earlier rounds and despite the half-time decision to change it around tactically, though enforced by injury.
He agreed but not for the reasons you might think. He mentioned too the roles of Sami Hyypia and Didi Hamann, players that with him and Gerrard, had lifted the UEFA Cup at Liverpool four seasons before. Without that experience: of learning how to beat opponents like Rapid Bucharest over two legs, then Slovan Liberec, Olympiacos, Roma, FC Porto, Barcelona and finally, in the craziest final ever, Alaves; then maybe Istanbul turns out differently.
Carragher told me the UEFA Cup was a competition where Liverpool became streetwise in the early rounds. In the seasons that passed between 2001 and 2005 there were a few highs and a number of lows in Europe, yet Carragher, Gerrard, Hyypia and Hamann carried those encounters with them to Istanbul.
In 2002 all four of them were in the side that was 3-0 down at half time in Basel. Although Liverpool went out of the Champions League that night, the final score was 3-3. More experience banked.
It got me thinking about how the UEFA Cup, or rather the Europa League, is regarded now — a tournament treated with contempt by English clubs, mainly due to the lack of financial benefits from winning it but also because of the supposed number of games that need to be played as well as the travel and, of course, the dreaded scheduling. Clubs fear a situation where an away game in Romania on a Thursday night might be followed by a trip to somewhere like Norwich on a Sunday.
Nobody has ever explained to me what makes performing instead on a Wednesday in the Champions League and then a Saturday in the Premier League less taxing. Yet clubs are willing to make more sacrifices to make it work for them even though the number of intervening hours between games are more or less the same.
The reality is, a team that wins the Champions League has to play only two fixtures less than the team that wins the Europa League if that team enters the respective tournament at the group stage. It is exactly the same number if a play-off round is required, as it would have been for Liverpool had they finished fourth last season and as it was in ‘05.
The benefits of being ambitious in the Europa League are intangible. Money earned from the Champions League is cold and there, a clear reward for a relative achievement. In the Europa League, a team might reach the semi-final, get knocked out and then everyone wonders why they bothered because it doesn’t lead to a real financial advantage.
I’d like to interview Rafa Benitez one day and ask him whether winning the UEFA Cup with Valencia just a few months before he joined Liverpool made him a better manager. I bet it did. The following season, he knew how to balance the approach between ties in the Champions League, using the force of Anfield at home before wisely attempting to stink places out away; being prepared to draw 0-0, which Liverpool did on a couple of memorable occasions at Juventus and then Chelsea.
Brendan Rodgers might not like it but he will always be compared to previous Liverpool managers. It should have been mentioned in the job spec when he was appointed. With that in mind, his players will also be compared to those from the past, those who had something to say when they were active if standards were not being met — making them the effective players they were; those, indeed, who are speaking out now, much to Rodgers’s chagrin supposedly.
The best way for Rodgers to end criticism is by winning matches and ultimately, to win trophies. It will buy him time and moreover, the respect he must crave inwardly.
Tomorrow night, Liverpool face Sion, a side that finished seventh in the 10-team Swiss Super League last May, one that qualified for Europe by winning the domestic cup.
Liverpool’s record in Europe under Rodgers is mediocre: 19 games played, nine wins (although three of them came in the qualifying rounds of the Europa League in his first season in charge), four draws and six defeats.
It is fair to say that Liverpool were more savvy in Europe under Roy Hodgson than they have been under Rodgers, a manager whose quest for self-improvement can be satisfied if he takes the Europa League seriously.
Liverpool’s target is to participate regularly in the Champions League again. Yet no manager I can think of has entered and straightaway become knowledgeable enough to go far in it without prior experiences elsewhere in European competition.
Jose Mourinho, for example, found a way to win the UEFA Cup with Porto in 2003 and a year later, his team beat Monaco in the final of the Champions League.
Sometimes, success follows a clear pattern. There is one that Rodgers could follow.
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Pic: David Rawcliffe-Propaganda Photo
A Liverpool manager is expected to cope with the demands of domestic league and European football at the same time. Up until now Rodgers has failed at this in a major way. His record, as pointed out above, is pretty poor.
This is a competition I’d like to see us take semi seriously. Not only does our manager have little experience of playing in Europe but most of our players too. If we solely focus on top 4 in order to get into the CL then we’ll find ourselves wanting and bomb out of that comp very quickly. Players and manager have to get the know how of how to approach European football. Winning this comp will have players around Europe sitting up and taking notice for when we dabble in the market again. Nevermind the obvious route to the CL.
There’s no reason why we should finish top of this group without having to play all our best players. Perhaps the odd one or two but it’s strange that so far Rodgers has put out a stronger side against lesser opposition in the league cup. After we finish top in the group the next round of the comp isn’t until Feb I think, then you might want to consider putting out stronger teams.
Thursday’s team should be mostly a 2nd string side with an eye on the derby. Use the likes of Bogdan, Gomez, Kolo, Lovren, Allen, Lallana, Rossiter, Ibe, Origi etc.
Sorry, Lovrens obviously injured.
The term “semi-seriously” jumped out at me. In my imagination, this means that we don’t prioritise it, but howl if it doesn’t go our way.
Part of all those new faces that have been brought in over the last two summers have been to add the depth required to compete on so many fronts. Rodgers is feeling pressure to add a trophy next to his name – KK still gets credit for winning the lowly Carling Cup, even if it was a woeful final won in a shootout against a minnow.
So should he give priority to the low-hanging fruit of the League Cup or the Golden Fleece of the Europa League. I know which one we’d all prefer, but you can understand the temptation of favoring a less daunting cup run.
We should be able to canter through this group finishing top without having to use our best players all the time. Perhaps the occasional outing for one or 2. When it comes to the knock out stages I’d consider using a stronger team. That won’t be til Feb.
Each comp has to be prioritised in a different way. I’d have the UEFA as 2nd.
That’s what I mean by semi seriously.
By the way, if Firmino, Hendo, Lovren & Benteke were fit the UEFA team would naturally look stronger.
Agree with this. Sturridge played Besiktas away in February and I wouldn’t want to see him played in this competition till the same round this season.
A fairly strong side excepting Sturridge should be able to get the job done with minimum fuss tomorrow. Then again I would have said similar before Carlisle last week and that ended up being one of the most exasperating games of football I’ve ever seen.
The likes of Origi needs to try and make these group stages his own. Over six group games the improved depth in the squad should see us through; we got through the group in Brendan’s first season and that was before all kinds was spent on buying players in.
Some would say that by playing the team you mention then it’s not being taken seriously but I agree with you though, they’re the kind of players we should be playing in this comp.
What Liverpool and the other English teams don’t have the luxury of doing, which most of the other Europa and CL teams can do, is play strong teams in Europe and weaker teams a few days later. There’s no easy game in the Prem, not even 1, unlike the leagues abroad which have a lot of shit teams in them.
The season is more gruelling for our teams and that’s showing in Europe now.
The Europa league and CL do have a break between the first week in December and mid February but then our domestic schedule increases for the Christmas period with 5 games in 15 days while teams in Spain, Italy, Germany and France are putting their feet up for a winter break (although I think Spain is reviewing theirs).
The FA Cup starts the first week of Jan and can lead to replays too. Towards the end of the season domestic midweek games increase and the better you do the more you play.
I think all English teams are starting to see they don’t have the squads to compete in both
When it comes to a derby match versus a match against FC Sion in the group stages of the Europa, I believe the priority should be the derby.
its a pretty sad endictment of English football that squads worth north of 200m quid arent built or able to compete for anything other than the 38 games of the Premier League.
“The EL is rubbish” is a myth.
It depends on the individuals perception whether it’s rubbish or not. There are arguments for both sides. For me though, it’s like when my lads team go to a tournament, have a mare and finish in the bottom half of the group. They go into the shield instead of the cup. They’ve won a few. It feels a bit like we’ve won the losers cup. I get no pride from it. It’s the same with the Europa.
It’s not a decision I’ve made based on weighing up the merits, it’s based on a natural emotion. You know the chant Thursday night, Channel 5. It’s used to embarrass the opposition. The Champions League is outside cafes in Milan and Madrid. The Europa is gloves and hats in Warsaw and Minsk. Don’t get me wrong, like the league cup. I look forward to it on match days but I wanna see fringe players starting. Pick just enough to get the job done. For me personally, I judge where Liverpool are at by where they finish in the league and I’d prefer to prioritise it. In regards to the article Rodgers still gets some experience.
I agree Michael. Are ticket prices lower as per the quality of team we are putting out? Are our first team players so experienced and tested that there is no added value to them? Have we been so strong as a club in the last five years that we should treat this competition as beneath our pedigree?
The obvious answer to each of those questions is a resounding no. Moreover, it appears that ownership values the PL and CL only, this is just Rodgers trying to ensure retention of his services. As I have said, I think Brendan will be a great manager one day, I am just not really convinced any longer that it is at this club with these players.
Exactly Scott. Unfortunately at this min in time, and for a few yrs now, the Europa league is our level. If we can’t compete at this level then why are we kidding ourselves we can compete at CL level.
Tomorrow line.up again Sion:
~ Bogdan
~ Gomez, Toure, (one of Skertal, Sakho, Can)
~ Moreno (since Enrieqe wont ve ready), Allen, Rossiter, Lallana, Ibe,
~ Origi and one.more
(I would love to see the two key players from U21 team get a run out too ~ Texiara and Braningan).
For some reason Texeira was left out of EL squad. Hopefully he can be added after group stages.
Second string team..? It makes no sense to me why we would concentrate more on finishing 4th, which is going to be very difficult, rather then winning this competition. Which guarantees us the end goal for all but the champions of each league thru Europe. . Qualification to the CL..
the money side makes no sense either. Win the EL you get around 15-20m I believe. If that impacts the league to the point you finish 7th rather than 4th then that impact is a downturn of approx 5m quid under current rates.
Guaranteed CL football puts the EL level with 3rd place in terms on CL qualification.
EL boots your coefficient. Sevilla gained 30 coefficient points which moved them to something like 30th in Europe. In context – we got 6 pts from the CL last season and languish in about 50th place which means almost certain pot 3 or 4 in the CL draw.
But, above all else, its a trophy. A big, shiny European trophy. Its what we’re about isnt it?
It’s difficult to say how much you win for winning the Europa but I’ve just had a quick look and it seems even with the increased prize money for the Europa it’s about £8m for winning it, plus a potential £1.5m if you win all your group games @ just under £300k for each win and just under £100k for a draw. Then there’s £400k for group winners and half that for group runners up. Then there’s additional gate receipts. Take just under £4m off that for semi finalists. Winning it is ok financially but anything else is pretty wank.
If we got to the final I’d be all over it but it’s like when we win the league cup. It’s a good day out but doesn’t make me feel particularly good. Each to their own though. People place different importance on different things.
We are at home against a mid-table Swiss side. Easy home win 4-0, even Rodgers can’t fuck it up. It’s not as if they’re a division 4 side a few places above semi-pros that have daytime jobs.
Yeah, I know. My predictions have been pretty pants lately. But come on, these games would be an easly 6 to 9 nil under Bob. So easy 4-0 it is.
Does anyone really get excited by the EL?
It’s a poorly structured tournament where you potentially slog your way through a group stage only to bump into a CL reject side in the knockout phase.
For me it should be about getting game time into players who haven’t got much in recently plus giving valuable experience to younger fringe players.
Who gets more value out of a Wednesday Night European tie in some obscure country? a 30+ year old who’s been there done it or a 19 year old who’s never/rarely played in a foreign country?
It’s not about us getting excited though Ben is it,
It’s about the players developing some much needed nous via a decent run in Europe whichever compo it may be,
Group stages of the European cup are just as boring but more hyped imo.
I think Rafa came to Liverpool with a 63% winning ratio in Europe with 1 quarter final in the Uefa Cup than another Quarter Final in the Champions League and then a Uefa Cup final in his 3 seasons at Valencia so I think that maybe the actual driving force behind the Champions league success of Istanbul and the seasons after, I think the man just knew what he was doing
With the amount that we have spent and with the current squad and U21 talent we have at the moment, i eexpect us to seriously challenge ALL FOUR competition we are in. Period.
No excuse and not in.a.position to prioritize. (unless it is an obvious case of Sturridge wrapped in silk wool, not just cotton, to be fresh for Darby match)
“Everybody’s talking at Me.I can’t hear a word they’re saying.Only the echoes of my mind.”
Maybe a continental quilt?
It’s an alternate way into the CL + a trophy, I don’t see how we can dismiss it, really
+
Completely agree. Plus if you do well prospective new players around Europe may sit up and take notice of us. Never mind the experience factor for both manager and players.
Exactly. It’s also a chance to build some momentum. And nobody has mentioned, apart from the boost to Euro coefficient, the value of putting LFC’s name back up there before its thought of as a relic of the past, also keeping it in the consciousness of potential future players as a competitive club.
I don’t think even our best XI would be likely to win this competition. People are forgetting that we are a team that can’t even score a goal, without Sturridge. We are also weak defensively.
I do think we should take the competition seriously though. This is our level, not the Champions League. We would get routed by teams of that calibre.
We need to be realistic about the sort of outfit that we are now. We are a selling club that also generates excellent revenue from a domestic tv deal, sponsorship, merchandising and gate receipts.
The amount of money that we would need to spend, in order to regularly qualify for the CL and be competitive within it, cannot be justified by the bean-counters at our club. It’s tough to accept, but they are probably right.
In 2013-2014, we briefly upset the natural order of things by replacing Manchester United as CL qualifiers. A far more powerful institution than ourselves, they reacted decisively to this and embarked on a recruitment plan that we simply could not compete with. Even though they took a scattergun approach to the problem, a muscle was flexed and the natural order of things was restored.
It’s not nice, but this is where we stand. We might qualify for the CL again, at some point in the next few years, but if that happens it will be because one or more of our signings works out spectacularly. Should that occur, that player (or players) will want to move on to better things and our owners will be happy to cash-in.
It could be worse. We could be Newcastle, Everton, or Villa. Clubs aiming to be where we are, but fighting against insurmountable odds.
However, we are priced at 16/1 to win this competition. That seems slightly generous and I’m surprised that our price is not closer to about 12/1. We are also priced at 5/8 to beat Sion at home this evening. To me, those odds seem fairly skinny and unless we are putting out our best XI (which has to include Sturridge) I would not be tempted to take that bet.
I don’t think we are strong enough to beat Sion and go on to also defeat Everton, in 3 days time. I hope I’m wrong, but it’s rare for us to follow up a European win with a domestic one just 72 hours later.
Something usually gives way.
We are 11/1 to win the comp. Second favourites to win the comp behind Dortmund. Admittedly those odds will change after teams drop down from the CL. I do agree that this is our level and has been for a few years now. If we can’t compete at this level then we should forget about the CL.
Rodgers doesn’t do Europe
As he said the day after being booted out by Besiktas, ‘it was never a priority’ and it never will be with Rodgers.