ANFIELD’S atmosphere was once a source of pride for Liverpool fans but now it’s perceived by many match-goers to be a problem. This season in particular, the atmosphere – or lack of it – has rarely been off the agenda for Reds at the game. The debate among supporters can often be circular so what is the academic point of view? I asked PETER MILLWARD, a senior lecturer in Sociology at Liverpool John Moores University.
GR: Is there a reason, a theory, that you can think of as to why many Anfield regulars now think what was once the envy of clubs around the world has, in their words, ‘disappeared forever’?
PM: I think it’s difficult to gauge what the atmosphere was, is and always will be. There’s always a nostalgic edge to it. When you look at studies sociologically in this field they always look at what is real and what is nostalgic.
There’s possibly a sense of ‘things were always better’ in the past, when we were kids, than they are today and that applies to the issue of atmosphere. We might think grounds were more raucous, that it was ‘better’ – whatever that might mean to an individual. I’d say there’s an element to it that is probably perceived. But equally there is probably an element that is very real.
In terms of volume of crowds it can probably be connected to the change in class composition of those who go to the ground because of the rise in ticket prices when compared to the cost of living and average wages.
GR: And seating v standing has also had an effect hasn’t it?
PM: Yes, undoubtedly. Andy Townsend doesn’t say many wise things but I once heard him say that not even Val Doonican can sing when he sits down. When you’re on The Kop you don’t sit all game, you stand for at least part of it…
GR: And plenty stand all the way through…
PM: …yeah, if you’re conditioned to sit down it makes a difference.
GR: I think what is simultaneously depressing and the reality of the situation, depending on what ‘group’ you’re in, is that Scousers, Wools, Out of Towners, Bucket Listers, Tourists…they all blame each other. I’ve stood on The Kop for 25 years on and off and I still do but it seems a blame culture has developed about whose ‘fault’ it is rather than anyone offering any solutions on how to make it better.
PM: Those groups you talk of have probably become more distinct. You had a long period when the Kop stood, had no allocated spaces, and people would intermingle and move about — both deliberately and unknowingly…
GR: And it meant you could stand with your mates…
PM: Yeah, and bit by bit as you moved about you got to know faces and understand ‘the rules’. Historically I don’t know whether The Kop was always Scouse but I would suggest it wasn’t always entirely and those on it who are ‘wools’ like me — from towns like Wigan, St Helens, Widnes, Warrington, wherever — if they behaved in a way that promoted a good atmosphere, if they added to it in the right way, they would become accepted, I think. Where they were from became less important. With The Kop now being seated — even though lots of people don’t sit — you have an allocated space and it makes territories far more distinct. There isn’t as much intermingling.
GR: Older Kopites often say The Kop, and the ground generally, was more Celtic once. It was dockers on there, workers, which you have touched on. One of the songs on The Kop talks about ‘every other Saturday’s me half day off’ and that’s obviously why we have the tradition of three o’clock kick offs, a tradition slowly slipping away as kicks off are spread through the day and through the week.
PM: The 3pm kick off was to compensate for people finishing on the docks or in factories at 12 or 1 then they would go down the pub for a couple of hours and then to the game. It’s a pretty positive thing that most people now have Saturdays off in their entirety and much of that is down to trade union action. But if you think about the history of football clubs they were tied to pubs, tied to churches, to worker’s organisations. It was a community-based support and it fostered a partisan atmosphere.
GR: And that’s how songs started isn’t it? In pubs, among groups of mates, groups of workers. If there are too many disparate groups – tourists from all over the world, locals, supporter clubs from around the country – do you think there is less of a feeling ‘of one’ that maybe helped the atmosphere in the past?
PM: Yeah, I think that’s true. But essentially big clubs like Liverpool can sell out stadiums time after time and the club is just bowing to the market. And that means lads from Anfield, Tuebrook, Huyton can’t afford it at 50 quid a go or thereabouts. What’s the average age on The Kop now? Forty-plus? That’s a big change from lads from school going together on a regular basis.
GR: There are hardly any kids. The club has only decided in fairly recent times that under-16s on The Kop with adult season tickets could now pay kids’ prices. It sounds a good thing but no one seems to know what that actually equates to numbers wise. From where I am on The Kop it looks very low — there aren’t great numbers of kids in there. There’s no Boy’s Pen or equivalent. There’s a parent child section in the upper Anfield Road but that’s it really. There’s no culture of going the game at a young age at Anfield now.
PM: It’s not easy is it? I am all in favour of the dads and lads, parent child type tickets but when I was 15 and going to the game – admittedly in a lower division – I was going with mates and it cost us £1.50.
GR: I paid a fiver at Anfield in 1990.
PM: It was £1.50 in 1995 at Wigan so what’s that in today’s money… six quid, something like that? Even accounting for a shift in status of the game, there is a massive difference in ticket prices between then and now, way beyond inflation.
GR: The other thing with the atmosphere issue – and it may well be a nostalgia issue as you suggest – is that in relatively recent history, Chelsea in the Champions League in 2005…that’s the loudest match I’ve ever been at. That crowd must have included wools, people in their 40s, people paying a lot of money for a ticket and angry or miserable Scousers… Why can’t that be reproduced for Manchester United at home this season, for example?
PM: It’s a special game though isn’t it? Not something that happens all the time. In 20 years’ time people will refer to it and maybe assume that was the norm. There’s a perceived issue but perhaps there is a problem of selective memory in that we reference the special occasions. It’s easier to talk now with social media and maybe a collective memory forms and develops into an idea that was normal, that was usual — a collective nostalgia.
GR: And if you do talk about the Kop on social media you are going to send your friend a YouTube of Chelsea 05, of the first time Liverpool were on Match of the Day, of the Kop singing The Beatles…time’s moved on, prices have moved on, the game’s moved on.
PM: That’s exactly it — collective nostalgia. It’s something the Marxist historian Eric Hobsbawm talks about nations having. They roll them out, celebrate them and say ‘this is what we are about’. But it’s collective amnesia as well and it happens with football fans, too.
GR: So we’re pining for something that hasn’t really happened?
PM: No, no, it has happened but not every week, not all the time.
Another aspect with all this is the FA’s Blueprint for Football document in 1991 that gave rise to the Premier League.
Chapter one puts the English national team at the top of the football pyramid and then details how to achieve that. Chapter two says – clearly, and unambiguously – that they have to change the core support who go to football matches from social class C1 – skilled manual, C2 – semi-skilled manual and D – unskilled, to A, B and C.
It says they have to up-skill because the social class structure in the UK has changed from a pyramid, with the fewest number at the top and the masses, the working class, at the bottom, to something where the middle classes have swollen.
It doesn’t mean people have more money in their pockets but it means more people are working in offices than factories. They’re not necessarily better paid but they are reclassified.
The FA commissioned a marketing company then published what they said about needing to change the class of the support. That is real.
GR: That doesn’t really surprise me. I’m sure that at some point Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore said something along the lines of that they don’t want to engage with fans that go every week. They’re trying to engage with people who go once a month, that see it as a treat, a special occasion.
PM: I can believe that.
GR: I know Arsenal and Manchester United fans have said this, too, but as a season ticket holder at Liverpool it doesn’t always feel like you’re wanted. They don’t want us. They don’t want a local lad who goes week in, week out. They want people from around the world who arrive and spend a fortune in the club shop, go into the ground early and consume overpriced ale and overpriced food, whereas us, who go every week, we know not to go in the ground and buy the food and the booze because it’s three quid for a sausage roll and a fiver for a pint or whatever.
PM: I went to your game against Chelsea when Fernando Torres scored twice (February 2009). My partner is a season ticket holder in The Paddock and she normally goes with her mum but she was on holiday. So I went along and I was struck by how many fans were there with the Liverpool tourism bags — and I don’t just mean the club shop but also The Beatles Story and so on. They had gathered all they could. These shopping bags were almost blocking the gangway. They were there on the full trip, spending a huge amount on merchandise and on ‘cultural products’. That’s a big change from your traditional fan who might buy a pie and a pint.
GR: This is the thing, for many attending Anfield now it seems like something to tick off. They’re not engaging in our traditions of supporting the club. They’re not singing You’ll Never Walk Alone or getting behind the team. It’s experience-gathering for many rather than supporting the team. I’ve even experienced supposed Liverpool fans taking the piss out of Kirkdale or Anfield on the bus, or out of young lads wearing trackies. What do they expect? Why are they separating the club from the city?
PM: Well my dad is from Walton and my mum from Kirkby and I was born in Fazakerley but they moved when I was a few months old and I grew up in Wigan and adopted Wigan Athletic as my club. Something that upset me when I was at school was the absolute denigration of working-class Scousers — it’s a product of Thatcher’s England. It was like a non-coloured racism. But you had people there, in Wigan, blaming Scousers for everything yet they supported Liverpool Football Club.
GR: There was a lad I discovered on Twitter once who had in his bio: ‘hate Scousers, hate the city, love Liverpool FC’… The people who are really angry about the atmosphere, I find, are your traditional match-going fans, in their 40s or 50s, have seen all the good times, still go and they think they provide a good atmosphere and they look around and say our Kop, our space, is being invaded by people taking selfies, wearing half and half scarves, not ‘getting it’…
PM: Well young people of today do different things to the young people of the past — it’s fashion. And it’s speeded up by technology.
GR: But there are young people at Anfield who are responsible for creating a good atmosphere. They make the flags, they make the banners, they go away… the away crowd is brilliant.
PM: I think, like any other town or city, there is parochialism at times in Liverpool. Have you got a purple bin and all that.
GR: I know, and I wonder sometimes do we need to get away from that and just save the atmosphere somehow? Preserve what’s traditionally made Liverpool special.
PM: I agree with you but there is a thing whereby we’ll define ourselves as ‘the real fan’ or the ‘authentic fan’. What that entails is differentiating ourselves from someone or something that we say, or imply, is the ‘inauthentic fan’, whether that is geography, class, clothes, haircuts, trainers…even whether your dad went home and away.
It’s hard to say what a truly ‘inauthentic fan’ is so we claw at bits and pieces to tell a story about ourselves — when you first went, what aways you went to, whether you go to Europe…and that’s not particular to Liverpool.
Think about Chelsea, how many of those fans can claim to be part of the 8,000 that were going to Stamford Bridge at one stage? There’s a thing whereby people look at the past and write their history into it. It’s not out and out lies, but there are often myths and positioning within those myths, a thing where we pick and choose the bits of our history that we tell.
It’s about presenting ourselves — if you want to go sociological it’s Erving Goffman’s The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life; that we cling to stories and props and rehearse our lines and we present ourselves to the stage, to those who are watching and listening, to present our identity.
What is true ‘authenticity’ of fan? That’s the core question.
GR: I guess then that once you have in your mind what is a ‘true fan’, and what is best, you go to Anfield and see someone not singing You’ll Never Walk Alone, half and half scarf, taking selfies, not singing, not giving the referee loads… whatever…
PM: Yeah, you define yourself against that. You say ‘that’s not me’. I don’t like selfies at football matches either… I don’t like selfies.
GR: This reminds me of a piece we ran on our site by Martin Fitzgerald. He was having a go at fans that look around at the game and say there are ‘twats in our end’.
PM: This comes about probably when people are pissed off, are annoyed, maybe even a bit bored with what they are watching. They start looking around for the tossers.
GR: And this is another thing. Last season we nearly won the league — the atmosphere felt good. There were a lot of games when it was good, the best in years. This season, when we’ve obviously fell short of expectations, everyone is saying again ‘the atmosphere is bad’.
PM: The question is really do you want an identikit of a fan? For everyone to be the same? It’s not going to happen.
GR: We also had a fan from Thailand write for the site, Pim, about being a ‘Thomas Cook fan’. Her argument was, well what are the rules? Where are they? Are they written down?
PM: But then those rules aren’t as powerful if they are written down. Talking sociologically, Ferdinand Tönnies, a German sociologist argues communities Gemeinschafts become associations Gesellschafts the moment rules are published and therefore lose some of their community powers. The thing that makes communities powerful are that they are self-regulating; to be in the community you know the rules.
GR: So this is back to how do you ‘save’ the atmosphere? You can’t produce rules. It’s not cool to have rules…
PM: No, no, no. Anyone can read rules. You just need to know. How do you know? By hanging about, by becoming part of that group. And when you’re becoming part of that group, if you do most of the things they do but make a minor slip up, probably someone says ‘don’t do that’ and has a quiet word in your ear rather than bumping you out. It’s accumulating the cultural capital; understanding the rules. For some you will have to wear certain trainers, or a certain polo shirt…
GR: There are so many levels with different groups at the match, I think. Coaches, areas, haircuts, stands, blocks within stands…
PM: There are elastic boundaries.
GR: The other thing I wanted to ask you about was that the atmosphere at times this season has felt increasingly poisonous, towards Sterling, towards Rodgers. I’ve heard it referenced by a lot of people, it’s not just something I have picked up on.
PM: I think it sticks in the craw when a lad the club have developed has his head filled with agent talk and maybe looks elsewhere. To the player it’s a job, it’s not to us — and that’s really hard to get our heads around.
When I was researching around the formation of FC United, some Manchester United fans said the tipping point for them had been Rio Ferdinand saying £90,000 a week isn’t enough after he’d missed a drugs test and the club and fans had stood by him. Then he wanted to leave.
Fans feel let down by players who don’t repay faith the club have shown them. Sterling is a world class player in the making but at 20 years old he is saying in a disguised manner that he wants more money. And when fans are paying so much money to watch the game…
GR: Is this central to the atmosphere problem? The price of going to the match?
PM: It’s central to the tolerance of players. And we see the players’ decadence on the front and back pages and on the TV, when at the same time we’re hearing stories of hardship. You get beat, and you look for reasons and you might think they didn’t try hard enough. At that point you look for excuses.
– Peter Millward is a Senior Lecturer in Sociology at Liverpool John Moores University. You can follow him on Twitter at: @PeteMillward79
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Pics: David Rawcliffe-Propaganda-Photo
This is another in a series of articles that I as an American fan of LFC, who has supported the club for a number of year – but would likely fall in the “bucketlister” category – kind of chaps my ass. It is hard to rectify supporting the club with the feeling that we are not perceived as part of the LFC family by the locals. In our pub here in CA we gather every Saturday/Sunday morning, sing songs at the TV and drink pints. We (at least I) are as emotionally/intellectually/financially invested in this club as any reasonable adult. However, this year we keep getting the message that this is not enough and that we’re “ruining” the club. If the supporters only want the 40 some thousand who fit into Anfield as the only supporters, I would 1. tell them to get stuffed; 2 check their privilege; and 3 ask them if they want LFC to be Leeds? This vocal group of supporters just sound whiny and pining for a nostalgia that is toxic and self serving.
All that being said, I hope that that vocal group is a only a minority and that when I finally get enough money together to go to Anfield for a match in person, I will be welcomed as part of the family, yank/wool or not .
Legendary comment man, I feel the same way, also a CA resident here. When I finally make it to anfield you bet your ass I’ll be taking pictures and collecting things but that’s only because I love the club so much and it will be, for me, a once in a lifetime experience. I will absolutely be standing and singing my heart out and hope to meet a lot of great people at the pubs and marching to the match.
I’m also an American fan (currently living in Missouri), and I think the general tenor of your comment is inaccurate. The voices on this site have generally been massively friendly to international adherents to the Red ethos. I was writing an excessively long reply to what you wrote, but I decided I’d rather try to limit myself to what I think is the critical thrust of your comment. (What I’ve written instead is also excessively long. Apologies.)
Basically, the overwhelming majority of local Reds don’t give a shit where you’re from as far as “accepting” you as a supporter. If you show up to watch a match at the ground or at a pub, and you actually care about the match–you know at least some of the players, you understand the rules of the game, and you care enough to cheer–virtually no one will treat you like you’re “ruining” the club. Especially if you know at least some of the key songs, they’ll have plenty of time for you.
In fact, you’ll probably get asked more questions than you’d like about how in god’s name you, as a Yank, ending up supporting Liverpool Football Club.
When people talk about OOTers ruining the club, they plainly aren’t talking about OOTers who come in and yell their asses off. Their concern lies with people who show up and shout fuck-all–people who mess around on tablets, who are shy, who are too self-conscious to make any noise.
I am hugely sympathetic to the attitude of an American fan scared that–based on the shit one might see on the internet–that you need to mask your nationality, or otherwise present yourself only hesitantly. However, I can promise you absolutely that the overwhelming majority of local reds are hugely welcoming to international fans. That’s especially true if you’ve taken to the time to learn a thing or two about the club and its traditions.
In short, I’d say don’t worry too much about the perceived “anti-OOT” bias you might think you see in these articles. What local fans resent isn’t OOTers as such, it’s typically fans who can’t, won’t, or don’t contribute to the creation of a worthwhile atmosphere. And when you yourself make the pilgrimage, I’m certain you’ll prefer it if the local crowd has a bit of spirit about it rather than quiet complicity.
“Something that upset me when I was at school was the absolute denigration of working-class Scousers — it’s a product of Thatcher’s England. It was like a non-coloured racism”
There is something uncomfortable and hypercritical about this comparison as racism was rife in this same period of time especially in the Liverpool era as we saw with the treatment given to Barnes in the first few months of his Liverpool career. I think “discrimination” would of been an appropriate term.
Every time I get involved in an atmosphere debate I have a different opinion. It’s definitely a few things combined but I’m convinced there’s an easy fix (the easy fix is difficult to achieve though).
Regarding the price, do the away lads create a good atmosphere? Maybe that’s because they’ve got rid of the wools. I think it’s more down to the mood. They’re having a day out. If I go to a game and I’m tense then I have nervous energy and I need to release it. I sing. It wasn’t difficult to predict QPR would be dire. There was nothing riding on it. It’s always been like that. What is the biggest night at Anfield in the past 10 years and 2 days? What’s the best atmosphere of the past 10 years and 2 days? What was the most exciting season? Sorry, that’s annoying me, even. It was last season and the atmosphere was brilliant. When I heard there was a flag greeting I wasn’t bothered. Wasn’t my scene. In the end I went to them all except the first. I got swept away by it all. Everyone was buzzing.
I just can’t get past the idea that home games are linked to importance. Obviously, Utd springs to mind but it wasn’t that different till 1.32pm. It was a big game and it was immediately clear we weren’t in it. The nervous energy or excitement turned to despair pretty quickly. That set the tone and it never reversed. The other thing is, 3 sides of Anfield is all the things listed above, from out of towners to Thomas Cook but the Kop is far less so. You see it at half time. The bars are all full of blokes aged 40-50 dressed similar to how they dressed in the 80’s as we all do. Believe me, at any given game there’s enough lads to get an atmosphere going. There are a lot of elder gents who stay in the seat at half time and that’s also an issue for the atmosphere. They sing like they’re singing in church, mumbled under the breath stuff and who can blame them, also, from my observations, only when the goings good too. Some games the whole Kop stands and the atmosphere’s always better. As pointed out, you can’t sit down and sing and clap. We’re not infants playing pass the parcel. The thing is, I sit 1 row after 206 in 207 and it’s clear all the singing starts in the standing section. Sometimes it comes over like a tidal wave. Like a domino effect. Everyone sings and sometimes, although it”s all the same people, it doesn’t quite make it out the bit a the back. It breaks down en route. The bigger the occasion the louder it comes over and sweeps you up. So, despite it being many things I think a mixture and nervous energy and passion lights the spark.
Is anyone surprised there’s a discord between Liverpool fans? All we read about is wools, out of towners and read some real disdain. People need to get their own house in order. It’s fuck all to do with out towners only the make up of the fan and that applies with Liverpool folk too. There’s a ‘hardcore’ (shit term but we’ve been reduced to using terms like that in an attempt to distinguish ourselves from the ‘others’) of fans in Chester, probably a coach worth, who have followed Liverpool all their lives. They’re as passionate as any. I also know of a group from Caernarfon who are the same. I’ve camped up there and I was under the impression they were a bit backward, too, until I met the Liverpool fans. They go to all the aways and are sound. All the lads I refer to are lads you’d want there. These are nice lads but insult our club and they’ll stand up for it. I’ve seen it. It may sound like I’m bothered about being excluded from the ‘cool club’ but I honestly couldn’t give a monkeys. I know what I know and that’s enough for me. If anyone wants to tell the Chester lads they’re not welcome then let them try. I think it’s a bit rich to expect respect back though, lol. I read it regularly so there’s your explanation. Get a winning team and although some issues are still there, we’re not having this debate, like we didn’t after Christmas last season. We’re pissed off because we’re shit.
Interesting article. Thanks. I can only say one thing. In 2014 when we were on an incredible feverish run & sitting at or near the top of the table, my Scouser friend — whose grandfather stood on the Kop in the early 1900s, whose father was a lifelong supporter, and who is now raising his son in the same tradition — took his boy to Anfield as often as possible. The boy sang his heart out both at the ground and at home in front of the TV. Every match.
In 2014-15 they again went to Anfield. There was no singing. His boy looked up at him with a confused expression and said, “Daddy, why is no one singing?” This breaks my heart. How does a father answer that question to a son who lives and breathes Liverpool Football Club?
We can come up with a thousand different reasons to try to explain it, a thousand excuses, but when Borussia Dortmund was at the bottom of the Bundesliga table this season their fans were as loud as ever — if not louder — standing by and showing their support for their club even more in tough times.
Many Liverpool fans, on the other hand, have collectively decided that moaning and criticising — and even abusing — both manager and players is more to their liking. Moaning is not singing. It’s not supporting. It’s defeatism, and defeatism leads to defeat.
We can come up with a thousand different reasons to try to explain it, a thousand excuses, but when Borussia Dortmund was at the bottom of the Bundesliga table this season their fans were as loud as ever — if not louder — standing by and showing their support for their club even more in tough times.
Including the confrontation with Hummels, Weidenfeller and the fans. Wonder what this place would say if something like that happened at Anfield.
Great article and some really interesting responses so far, especially from Ellie with regards to how Dortmunds season has gone and their supporters.
My view, being someone who lives in Melbourne, Australia and has only ever seen the Reds live at the MCG 2 years ago is this;
Liverpools success mainly came decades ago, and since the 90’s, when we last won the league, we haven’t been our dominant selves of the 70’s, 80’s and prior.
The main success of the past 25 years were the cups, the Treble season and obviously Istanbul.
So my question to matchgoers through this period, and it would help if they also went during our successful decades, was has the atmosphere deteriorated from what it was like? Because for me, I believe it is a “success” measured thing.
Whilst the atmosphere can all vary on the type of game, ie. the Semi Final vs Chelsea in 05, the 2-1 vs City last season in that run in, these are periods of great success, of great football, that is fun to watch, and that clearly breeds those vibes in the crowd of a good time.
I think it’s total shit when it’s suggested that the lack atmosphere is to bucket-listers, wools etc etc. And here’s why. I consider myself to be someone who “gets it”, but I’m a foreigner obviously… Listening to TAW for 2 and a half years has certainly helped more recently, but even before that as a young kid, I learnt all the songs. I bought YNWA and Fields of Anfield Road and listened to it every day on my way to school. I did this because I was swept up in a love for the watching Liverpool and the history of the club intrigued me, I felt some connection to it and I am positive it was the same for tens of thousands of others around the world too.
Now I know this wasn’t suggested in the article, but here’s my next point relating it back to my idea that it’s the success that breeds a good atmosphere. I assume that the blue noses have never had an atmosphere that rivaled ours. Maybe as is mentioned that back in the 70’s/80’s with terraces and a more partisan feel, it might’ve been better, (I don’t know as I couldn’t give a fuck about their history) but if that’s true, then it backs up my point. It’s the success. It’s not us wools and bucket listers, because I doubt Goodison is anywhere near comparable to the amount of people going to the game like that, they’re not as popular. So therefore their ground would be full of locals, or there abouts. People from the same demographic, with the same fucking haircuts and who all wear the same polo shirts, etc. etc. Yet their atmosphere is fucking drab because the football they play is utter wank…
My last point to back it up is my personal story. I live a good 50km from Melbourne, but that’s where I work (a decent commute), but in the City is where the LFC Supporters club is, of which I’m a member.
Last season at the Impy it was an incredible atmosphere. Singing and bouncing every match, and it was worth it to leave home at 9pm on a Sunday night after dinner with the family, to get there by 9.45, to be there earlier enough for a 12pm kick off. It was a boss atmosphere and that’s what I wanted to be a part of and create. I would rock up to work Monday morning and could hardly speak. It was great.
But this year. Totally different story. There’s no way I’m going to make a 100km round trip at that time of night to watch the reds in a shit atmosphere with people slagging Brendan and Raheem amongst others, when I could stay in and watch it on the tele. Do I love the Reds any less? Fuck no. But I obviously know that me supporting them at the Impy or in my lounge room as no direct effect on the atmosphere at the ground.
If I was at the ground, for me, it would be a different story. Yes, my point is of success determining support, but I would support as much as I could. I wouldn’t give a fuck if the bloke next to me had his post code numbers shaved into his head (as some kids used to do here in good ‘ol Straya once upon a time).
Everyone needs to stop moaning about little things, and think about why they go the game. For me it should be to have a laugh with your mates and enjoy the game!
The person who wrote this in my opinion is a total tosser! Maybe he would also consider taking all the out of towners, wools etc out of the team as well. And that applies for the whole history of the club!
The fact of the matter is the team does shit – the atmosphere goes shit simple!
Yeah, because that was the point being made wasn’t it? Also, it’s a conversation. So not great comprehension there, Clive. At least you’ve proved the blame theory. And if solving the issues is as simple as the team being good why is the atmosphere good at Stoke City? Well in, look forward to your next nugget of wisdom.
Well have I missed the point? Maybe but so have others. Read the other comments and its clear people have picked up on the underlying point I think you make (deliberately or not). Which is only local fans from Liverpool are true supporters, because you were all local, all mates back in the day, meeting in pubs, singing and making up songs, or the local dockers that gave the Celtic feel, etc.
Now, you are asking, has it all changed because wools, out of towners, half scarf’s, are now making up the numbers and they aren’t the same as the old fans.
You also moan about, and I quote “as a season ticket holder at Liverpool it doesn’t always feel like you’re wanted”.
Well how do you think non “Scousers” think about supporting the club and feeling welcome when people like you suggest, or are asking, if they might be to blame for crap atmosphere at the ground.
Hope this adds to the conversation!
Well it’s an upgrade from the previous effort. The point is it’s a debate. Hence asking someone who can offer a different point of view, someone outside the Liverpool bubble. The make up of the crowd has changed. If you want to take at offence at that fact then that’s your prerogative.The conversation quite clearly offers a number of reasons why the atmosphere has changed. But you read what you want to read.
Not offended in the slightest TAW. I just hope the club is able to compete with the other top teams and challenge. That’s what all Liverpool FC “fans” want.
I also hope the money I paid for tickets and merchandise helps bring in a decent striker this summer.
Finally I hope I contribute to the atmosphere in a positive way and don’t offend real fans with my souvenir bag.
Great. Good for you.
A very interesting and pertinent point made in the piece is this thing of the ‘right’ supporter.
It’s such an ambigous thing anyways but once you start producinga a list of yay and nays for what a supporter should wear, how they should look, what they should do, how they should act, your getting into very very dodgy ground to me.
This is not just a football problem. I know that Welsh rugby fans have been moaning for years about the crowds at international matches, many regard them as ‘theatre goers’ – there for the day out ( or in Wales’s case for the Mikey Rayer, all dayer, that goes with an international rugby game, the rugby is of little consequence). The thing is though that they are paying their money the same as the Out of Towners, the Wools whatever. In most cases I’d say that OOT is probably more likely to be as supportive as someone that’s from across the road, more so if they know that that will be the only time they’ll ever get to Anfield.
A lot of people arent lucky enough to make it, hell I’ve gotten there once in 37 years of supporting. Its difficult for the majority of fans, which I think is forgotten.
Did I take photos? – fuck yes I did, did I sing, fuck yes I did, did I moan under my breath, fuck yes I did. I was, basically, a supporter, as were the other 45,000 in the ground.
I know everyone likes to berate the half & half scarf or the mascot or whatever but they are for sections in the support that like that, not for everybody. If we were one big homogenous support, I think truth be told, it would be a pretty stultifying experience to be a Liverpool supporter.
For me, the mascot is on the front line of this fight. I don’t care where someone is from, if they accept that then I don’t want them in the ground. How can an adult accept someone dressed in a stupid costume on match days? It’s an insult to the people of Liverpool and Liverpool fans in general. I’d be happy to have some form of test at the turnstiles and anyone found liking the mascot could be branded with ‘bellend’ across their forehead. Like I said above, someone’s location is irrelevant to me but their mentality isn’t. I like sex but I wouldn’t go to Saudi and have sex down an alleyway like I would here. I’d respect the local culture.
That’s my point, the mascot isnt for the adults (in the main) is it, its for kids, simply that, for kids.
For toddlers parties, maybe. Kids go to the match to see Steven Gerrard and goals, not some pathetic mascot. Don’t underestimate kids. It’s got no place at Anfield whatever your opinion. Next stop cheer leaders.
We’ll agree to disagree on this one Robin I think!
Winning. Thats it. That’s the key. Winning.
The piece the other week at the demo outside the ground was excellent and the lads who were interviewed came across well, really understanding the figures around match day income which at LFC is circa 5% of total income.
It seems to me we’re at a key point in time with the new TV money coming in. Unfortunately for me though the Premier League lacks any coherent structure to prevent this money ending up being sucked out the league in increased wages and transfer fees to clubs in Europe. The league seems stuck in a cycle of:
It’s the best league in the world. (it’s not) it’s the best marketed and it has on average 4 teams that could win it unlike Germany, Spain, France or Italy but it’s certainly not the best quality.
It pays the best wages and if we don’t continue to pay the best wages the league will suffer through marketing deals abroad and players shifting to other countries.
Not so the new TV deal means that clubs could continue on the more or less the same wage structures (paying the most in Europe, bar the Galatico teams)
The argument of the the player getting the best deal he can (of course) and the money in the game should be going to the people actually playing is starting to wear thin. I think most sane people can agree on average £50,000K a week ain’t that bad.
Then there’s the argument we get of well playing careers are short, players need to earn as much as they can as after football there would appear that there are no other career choices available to them. This particular mix of chemistry and physics only applies to footballers though. Any other human on the planet who ends one career through whatever reason is expected to re-train in another field to support themselves. For some reason and it maybe called the “Aston Martin” reason if a player can’t keep themselves in the lifestyle they have become acquainted to then this is a failure of the game not the individual.
Again unfortunately for LFC the board have already announced that the new increased capacity will be used to max out match day revenue and not reduce overall ticket prices. This for me is where traditional corporate structures start to over rule the idea of a football club. There will be a corporate view that the club needs to max out it’s commercial value which keeps it as saleable asset, makes it valid for further lending, is able to reduce any debt (bank lending interest rates)
The issue as I see it now where fans feel totally squeezed not just with ticket prices but with 7 years of recession you can end up in a cycle of everything is just shit.
I’m paying £700 for what might be a shit view of the pitch, the food in the ground os overpriced and shit, the actual seat is too small and shit, the day tripper next to me with his carrier bag of LFC souvenirs is shit, the football on the pitch is shit, the atmosphere is shit, the kids need new school shoes which is shit. Why the fuck am I doing all this when in fact everything is just shit.
An increase in capacity to 65K with new TV money for me allows you to do something totally creative within the current selfie climate we find ourselves in.
I know this might sound unpopular but it could actually allow you to have atmosphere sections, mates could sit together, ticket prices for certain areas of the ground could be reduced (ie the Kop), old arses could shift into other areas of the ground, day trippers could be housed in one area.
The clubs needs fans that have moved away, have other responsibilities, day trippers to be able to get to the game and with an increased capacity I think you could retain and generate that special atmosphere.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/13/bundesliga-premier-league-germany-ticket-prices
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/price-football-report-fans-england-4438510
http://www.theguardian.com/football/david-conn-inside-sport-blog/2012/dec/01/german-fan-owned-clubs-bundesliga
“I know this might sound unpopular but it could actually allow you to have atmosphere sections, mates could sit together, ticket prices for certain areas of the ground could be reduced (ie the Kop), old arses could shift into other areas of the ground, day trippers could be housed in one area.”
I believe that’s called segregation isnt it, which again divvies up fans into categories, us and them, those lot, OOT’s etc – we need to be a support, a fan base I think, rather than segregated groups.
I take your point but I wasn’t talking about putting a white picket fence around them.
has the current position has resulted in a situation where the core support has been diluted down to a point of watered down beer.
You could have a situation where you have pockets of them around ground. Going back to my main point though is that an increase in capacity allows you do trial different models whilst retaining a significant % of core support on the Kop
I think in an ideal world you’re looking for something like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26Ju8-AzH6I
Fkn great therapy! It’s good to talk and get all the shite out of our eads.
As long as the majority are prepared to express their emotions then you have to take the good and the bad emotions. The remainder is upto the team on the pitch to get us going good style. As for the local nonsense those people who breed that sort of attitude dont do anyone any good. LFC is one of the biggest Clubs globally for a reason and even the most miserable narrow minded dour parochial Red will feell a sense of pride with that fact. YNWA
To the first couple of posters from across the pond, I have no doubt there would be an element of supporters who would like to blame the likes of yourselves. It’s unfortunate, but they’re ignorant so….
Personally I blame the people responsible for prices and ticket distribution.
I once saw Peter Millward at a match in the early 60’s.We’d just got promotion.Shankly told us we would win everything.In those days we scrimped and saved every penny to get to the game.Peter Millward was standing on a barrier in the middle of the Kop leading us in all those songs!
Only one problem.It wasn’t the same Peter Millward who’s trying to convince everybody that we imagined it all.
Do me a favour.In those days you would get 25,000/30,000 watching reserve games.You would get 300 people watching inter-street football games in the bull-rings in Scottie Road and Myrtle Gardens.About 8,000/9,000 would watch a school football final at Anfield!
Things have changed and I understand that but don’t try and tell me that we imagined it all!
Desmond Morris probably had it right when he said it was tribal..That was our identity.We had the The Beatles and the Mersey Sound and the best football teams in the land and we let everybody know about it.
But then again we just discussed who had played well and sometimes preferred one player to another.And it was just a very basic discussion on what we had witnessed.
Fast forward a few years and suddenly football became a “thing to do” in the early 90’s.People I knew who never had any interest whatsoever became experts in everything Sky told them.The next thing we saw was keyboard warriors with little or no knowledge of football spending 5 minutes on t’internet and telling us about contracts,wages,transfers and salaries .And they became more knowledgeable than Andy Townsend and Michael Owen.
But us old buggers just wanted to cheer and encourage our team on to win!!!!
Nothing wrong with progress though;just so long as you remember the history that got us there!
In a funny coincidence, ESPN posted this today:
http://www.espnfc.us/blog/espn-fc-united-blog/68/post/2436729/borussia-dortmund-and-schalke-04s-revierderby
Hi Robbo,
Did you ever find that quote from Scudamore about engaging with the monthly fans? Trying to find the same quote myself, but had no luck.
Cheers