SEAN ROGERS (not Rodgers) and Paul Cope (not Copde) spend forty five minutes going into the issues around Liverpool’s 6-1 defeat against Stoke
THE TUESDAY REVIEW
// TAW SHOP
// TAW APP
// PARTNERS
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
SEAN ROGERS (not Rodgers) and Paul Cope (not Copde) spend forty five minutes going into the issues around Liverpool’s 6-1 defeat against Stoke
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Easily the best show I’ve listened to in the 2 or 3 years I’ve been visiting TAW. Great points made by all.
Paul is absolutely right that the goals conceded were all the result of individual errors that no amount of coaching, no rejigging of formation and no tactical planning can insulate you against. Make mistakes of that magnitude at the elite level and they can – and often do – lead to goals against. Couple that with the opposition enjoying one of those days when each player could fall into a bucket of shit and still come up with a rose between his teeth, and it’s going to be a long afternoon.
And yes, l mentioned the fouls things on Sunday. Not only had we committed just the one foul in the first half, this was against a team that had been pinged for 10 fouls against us…and yet they were the team five goals to the good. They even managed a draw on fouls in the second 45 (3 a piece). What in the name of jumping Jesus is that all about? If any player had come in at half-time on the back of that and given Rodgers stick about the formation/tactics, I’d like to think Rodgers would chin the fucker there and then. I don’t give a shite whether they’ve been sent out in a 4-3-3, a diamond or a dodeca-fucking-hedron. Kick some c**t or die trying. Then we’ll chat.
I absolutely loved Sean’s observations on winners and the winning mentality, including that point that you don’t need to be a knuckle-dragging goon to qualify as a ‘winner’. That said, I think there’s merit is having maybe one player who exemplifies that winning mentality through word and deed pour encourager les autres.
If only Lee Catermole could trap a ball…or we’d maybe had a bit more faith in Shelvey? Whatever else he may/may not have done on Sunday, we can all agree Jon-Jo would have ‘introduced himself’ to Stoke at some point in that first 45.
I’d personally like to see us bring Newcastle’s Sissoko to Anfield. He’s a full French international, is only 25 and embodies everything that’s missing from our lightweight midfield. And possesses the necessary needle when required. Alex Song may be more realistic given he’s only got 2 years left at Barca as opposed to Sissoko’s 4 at Newcastle. Either would make us harder to play against.
Anyway, great, great show.
“What in the name of jumping Jesus is that all about? If any player had come in at half-time on the back of that and given Rodgers stick about the formation/tactics, I’d like to think Rodgers would chin the fucker there and then. I don’t give a shite whether they’ve been sent out in a 4-3-3, a diamond or a dodeca-fucking-hedron. Kick some c**t or die trying. Then we’ll chat.”
No. Just no. Abso-fucking-lutely NOT. I do give a shite about how the effing manager, whose instructions I always sought to abide by as a player (different team sport but that’s irrelevant) and insisted that my teammates did too to the best of their ability REGARDLESS OF THEIR OWN VIEWS ON THE MATTER, sent us out there to play and with what personnel. None of this nonsense about “heart” and “gumption” and the rest of the meaningless bullshit.
This is high-level professional sport. Neither managers nor players are getting paid handsome sums of money to be better versions of Sunday league players and amateur coaches. Only amateurs would ever discuss actual battles (ya know, war) in these ridiculous terms (heart and courage and the rest of it). Tactics, logistics, strategy, field of battle management, timing of reinforcements, real stuff, not morale-boosting speeches and medal-winning heroics.
Both managers and players should be analyzed for the professionals that they are. Not qua “men” who have to have ‘guts’ and ‘needle’ and assorted malarkey.
Bizarre comment given you at least partially agree with me (whether you realise it or not). One of my main points is that players don’t receive ‘get out of jail free’ cards just because the manager may have cocked up tactically. The very fact that these players are well paid professionals and not Sunday League players is why there is an expectation that a certain amount of decision-making is made in real-time, on the pitch when it has become clear that plan A isn’t working. It’s called adaptability.
“Only amateurs would ever discuss actual battles (ya know, war) in these ridiculous terms (heart and courage and the rest of it).”
How quaint. Ever heard the expression “you’ve got to fight for your right to play”? Nobody is suggesting you can win championships on guts and brawn and a winning mentality alone, but those qualities can sometimes stop you losing games you otherwise would lose, or at least provide a platform for a team to implement its game-plan. In other words, they give you a chance, which is why all successful teams in all major supports have characters displaying these qualities in their sides.
Another Rodgers apologist. I suppose Brendan has s.f.a to do with them ‘individual errors’. He only bought the players, set them up and sent them out. Mark my words, you can give Brendan 20 years and 20 billion and he’ll still win nothing. Absolute sham. Shouldn’t have even been allowed travel back on the club coach after that game. Big club my arse.
The view from this show is much better than the others. There’s hope up here (hope is the thing with feathers, right?) Anyway, feel a bit better after that. Thanks lads.
I was quite looking forward to the Tuesday Review, especially the tactical analysis that Sean Rogers would provide (I hoped).
Instead, I nearly stopped listening to it for fear of literally puking at the ad nauseam discussion (term used generously) of “leaders” vs “winners” and top-top suggestions that the proper reaction to being e.g. 3-0 down would’ve been for one or two of our players going hard into a tackle from behind on a 50-50 ball . . .
At least the other fella (Paul Cope?) made a good case for the actual football that we played before going down 1-0 and then in between each of the goals we conceded. But then he said that Lucas had a poor first 15 minutes! I watch every single game I have on the DVR (sometimes I stupidly forget to program it) on 1/2 speed and anorak the crap out of it.
Don’t tell me you didn’t notice the crappy job the referee was doing, letting Stoke City players get away with murder (especially Charlier Adam but also Shawcross et al) and giving Lucas a yellow card for a perfectly legal toe-poke away. Don’t tell me you didn’t notice that Coutinho was having a crap game. Don’t tell me you didn’t notice that Henderson’s passes were mediocre at best. Don’t tell me you didn’t notice Lallana was neither a “winner” nor a “leader” (and probably never will be, bar the odd game). Don’t tell me you didn’t notice that Moreno is a crap defender, a left-footed Glen Johnson without the physique and the height and probably a worse positional sense and discipline than GlenJo.
You talked of Sakho as having shown enthusiasm and metal but neglected to focus on him doing an imitation of Lovren and thinking he’d have to beat LUCAS to defensive headers half-way to the half-way line; the idea was to have him substitute for Moreno on defensive headers down the flank. Not to try to beat Lucas to them. Lucas is perfectly alright, in fact, he’s BOSS at defensive headers. Leave it, mate, and whatever you do don’t clatter into his back AND miss the header.
And the ridiculous contortionist imitation he did for their 4th goal after wasting eons of time in either just not clearing the darn flick on from a throw-in (which ought to have been a free-kick for us, but I covered that above) or controlling the darn ball without being closed down . . only to “pass” it to Lucas (well, in the general vicinity of Lucas) . . .
And what about Skrtel and Mignolet . . .
The point is, don’t just drone on about b.s. pop psychology nonsense about “bollocking” and “leaders”vs”winners”, analyze the effing game, the tactics, the substitutions, not the ‘motivations’ of the manager and players. That’s not what The Tuesday Review is for. We get all that on many of the other podcasts. Analysis, insight, not cliches, repeated in fifteen slightly different versions.
By far NOT the best Tuesday Review. Not by a country mile.
There was plenty of discussion about Rodgers’ use of the diamond, playing without a c-f and throwing together Sakho, Allen and Lucas centrally when none of them have been playing regularly. And also specific reference to the individual mistakes you allude to above.
Your characterization of Sean’s input as if were a product of Vinnie Jones’ Football Finishing School makes me wonder if you didn’t in fact do what you say you nearly did i.e. turn the show off after just a few minutes. Did you catch the bit where Sean mentioned that one of the biggest advocates of the ‘winners over leaders’ philosophy was some fella called Ronnie Moran?
I did not stop listening but it is entirely possible I started unconsciously ‘tuning out’ some of the later discussion.
As I do with matches, I’ll listen to the show again.
I just cannot handle this particular show being hailed as ‘the best’ The Tuesday Review and the like. I normally get positively giddy at the prospect of listening to the Tuesday Review. I have never found myself wanting the take the earphones out of my ears and take a break for 5-10 minutes before whilst listening to the TR.
Anyway, with regard to the ‘explanation’ for the first half player selection/first XI. There was nothing wrong with Sakho, Lucas and Allen. They weren’t that ‘rusty’. Sakho was obviously instructed (and I say this given that Lovren did basically the same thing last time he started) to be THAT aggressively front-foot, that reckless. Lucas had one moment of being caught on the ball. For the fourth goal, despite not being able to corral Sakho’s so-called pass, he recovered and was in line to prevent the possible pass from Adam back to his right. Skrtel (being Skrtel) backed off too far and didn’t ‘address’ Adam early enough and aggressively enough. Allen was caught on the ball once, I believe. Otherwise, he was perfectly fine, in fact he was better than Henderson who was his usual energetic and industrious self but was mostly ineffective, both defensively and in attack.
The problem was the selection of Coutinho and Lallana as the front 2 of a 41212 (442-diamond). One could ‘see’ what we were trying to do, how we were going to use crisp interchanges and pass-and-move to defeat the not-so-mobile Stoke City defenders. It invariably petered out for lack of, well, coordination. Our performance in the opposition half and final third had the look and feel of a pre-season match. And there’s a reason for that. It was a brand-new, experimental ‘design’. 2 center-backs, one wingback/full-back, and 7 central midfielders (1 playing at RB) in a diamond, with Balotelli, Borini and Lambert fit and available to play.
Needle (or lack thereof) had little (if anything) to do with the result and scoreline, imo. The starting XI and formation were the exact opposite of BR being pragmatic and wanting to ensure we won the game (to secure 5th no matter what, and to send Stevie off with a victory). If it was ‘political’ (to make a point to FSG) then I’d be very upset if I were FSG.
Having said all that, on a different day, with Mignolet being more on his game and Can not having as much of a bad day at the office, and the referee actually calling a game of professional football (as opposed to rugby union) properly (which would entail e.g. Adam having received a second yellow card by the 30th minute), the pass by Coutinho to Henderson having been released a half-second earlier, Coutinho’s attempted worldie actually going in, etc the scoreline would’ve been entirely different and we’d be having a totally different discussion.
What’s missing in this analysis is the fact Rodgers chose to remove every player from the club that had this ‘winning’ mentality. Reina, Agger, Kuyt, Bellamy, Shelvey. May or may not have been the right thing in each case for them to leave when they did but what is certain is their mentality hasn’t been replaced, except by spineless yes men. Lucas is another one, but Rodgers has fucked him about from pillar to post because he’s not one of his.
It’s well know his opinion is ‘Young players will run through a barbed wire fence for you, while more experienced players will try to find a way through it.’ What rubbish.
I was completely against the appointment of Brendan Rogers. After Hodgson we didn’t need a rookie/young upstart. I wanted Capello or similar. Just for a couple. An authoritarian who was bigger than the senior players and knew how to win at club football. But I was prepared to give Rodgers a chance despite having a CV that meant he shouldn’t have even got an interview for the job of Liverpool Manager.
Then ‘Being Liverpool’ was aired. Holly shit. Who is this clown? I’m still convinced that was scripted and written by Amy Poehler. That wasn’t real. Was it? Is this man really in charge of Liverpool Football Club? This was as cringe worthy as Partridge or Brent. More so. This was real. “Stop Brendan!” “Please stop talking!” I still can’t believe he allowed that to be made. Rodgers *HAD* a massive ego.
I hadn’t warmed to him until that press conference after the Stoke game and the inevitable media witch hunt since. Now I quite like him. Now he seems almost human and no longer a walking quote book or egotistical nonsense.
I do believe that Lucas’s form during the run after Christmas was one of the main reasons we played some of the best football in the league this year. I know many people are against a good defensive midfielder and we need another, but Lucas allowed Can and Sakho to come out and play. He gave Henderson the confidence to join the attack. He allowed Coutinho and Sterling to keep their advanced positions and create what looked like the emergence of an incredible partnership.
Lucas’s injury hit us hard. Allen stepped in and rode the confidence wave within the team for a couple of quite easy games. But it was never the same. Off come wheels.
Lucas’s return was against Arsenal. A rusty Lucas just back from injury is horrific to watch. It was then and it was against Stoke. He gets injured a lot. He’s had some serious injuries. He’s an attacking midfielder who wasn’t very good at that and became quite good in defence. We need another*.
*As well as strikers. We all know we need strikers. Knowing a DMF is the key to an attacking side doesn’t mean you don’t want to buy strikers.
Everybody knows I am a staunch Lucas loyalist. Still, I don’t just defend him, despite what many people assume.
I’ve watched the first half three times already (the first one doesn’t really count, as I was as stunned as everyone else).
The description of Lucas’s performance in the first half vs Stoke City that I see being repeated bears little to no resemblance to actual empirical reality. There was no comparison whatsoever between Lucas vs Arsenal earlier and Lucas vs Stoke City on Sunday. No one has mentioned Lucas involvement in our attacking play (buildup). It was excellent. His vertical middle-distance passing was incisive and assured. Defensively, while it wasn’t a 9 it was a 7-8; people expect Lucas to be putting out fires consistently and everywhere no matter how royally other players are out of position or how poorly they’re performing. That’s not right. Defensive midfielders cannot be expected to be that every match before they’re classed as having had a decent game.
Lucas is decent enough. Or results appear better when he’s sat in front of the CBs, although performances with him and Gerrard on the pitch are dire since the captain got moved back. The problem with Lucas is he is unreliable, breaks down after a small run of games, and can’t shoot to save his life, which is shocking considering Rafa bought him when he was an AM and not a DM.
I’d love to see some analysis of our players’ availability levels compared to others in the division (bar the dropzone fodder). Other than a handful of players, most of ours seem to be made of glass rather than steel.
Our club is in the shitter. We have finished below Spurs 5 out of the last 6 seasons.
Blame Rafa for losing the dressing room. Blame that old cunt Woy for being an useless old cunt. Blame Kenny for being out of the game for so long. Blame Rodgers for being a salesman of himself; but fucking hell, Spurs are out doing us year on year in the main despite ‘arry brown envelope, park the bus AVB, Tactical Tim, and some guy that sounds like a fucking 5 quid coffee from starfucks.
Paul Cope said (starting at 5’43”): “Lucas was actually really poor for 15, 20 minutes especially at the start, very very much off the pace, missing out, a yard behind everything”
I watched the first twenty minutes of the first half for the third time last night, specifically so as to evaluate that statement.
Lucas was caught in possession ONCE near the halfway line by their striker who came from behind, blind-side and intercepted Lucas’s attempted turn and pass, in that period. Sakho recovered manfully (also rusty?), anyway.
So, no, Lucas was actually not at all, not in the least “very very poor for 15, 20 minutes especially at the start”. He was not in the least “very much off the pace, missing out, a yard behind everything.”.
That is a factually incorrect description. Soz.
Ok. Not everyone watches 20 minutes of football three times before recording a show. Soz.
Is the point of a review not to give an opinion based on facts and to explain this well? Just so your not, you know, just like some dickhead down the pub talking shite with nothing to back it up?
That’s exactly what TAW is! They’re the pissed blokes down the pub reacting to what is going on. The club is irrelevant. But unlike most podcasters, the main guys aren’t fuckwads, they are generally sane, 4 out of 5 times, anyway. Militant people like McKenna kill the show, though. Unless you’re into 1970s jobs-worth striker type with limited marketable skills.
The fact these people are latched onto a club in the top 10 rich boys means there’s a huge market to lap up shit about the club. And good luck to them, capitalism working properly. Try it with Runcorn and it would have died a long time ago. Don’t like it? Make your own, it’s easy enough. Show some cleavage and you’ll get more listeners by the end of the month.
Great show, some better than others obviously. But on a whole the whole Anfield wrap experience puts others to shame, the only other Liverpool podcast i listen to is day trippers and thats it. Loads of the others have a bunch of people with no appreciation of how difficult it is to manage a football team moaning and chatting bollocks which gives me a headache.