THERE’S a Mancunian contingent with us today in the boozer. Good lads. Head the ground before us. They are eager about the post match. Trying to impress upon them this one thing — you’ll have a better night if The Reds win. If The Reds win it will be joy unconfined. It will be Excelsis Deo via Ls4 & 2. If The Reds win we sing and dance and talk talk talk in their honour. If The Reds win, well you can guess the rest.
If The Reds don’t win, prematch, watching Phil Thompson pump his fist going down the Main Stand touchline, if The Reds don’t win then what do you do? What do you say? How do you go out from there? You find a way. You always find a way. But nonetheless. Nights, days, weeks and months, yes, months sit on this one from where I am. A defeat creates a gap which will require perfection to surmount. A draw can be rationalised.
The sun shines, the ground buzzes. It feels wrigglyarms. 13:25 and it feels very, very wrigglyarms. My wrigglyarms sense is tingling. Jordan Henderson leads them out.
George does some jiggery pokery with You’ll Never Walk Alone before kick off. The crowd responds brilliantly. These two things are the best Liverpool manage for the following 26 minutes for the side are abject and the crowd sinks to their level. Absolutely abject.
United have done their homework. The questions they are asking The Reds is not unlike Swansea. Different shape and better players, but similar questions. For instance:
1. Who should pick him up?
2. When do we press?
3. How do we deal with a long ball when a man drops off?
Ok. Swansea didn’t ask number three. But they did ask the other two. Van Gaal’s set United up brilliantly, playing in between the lines that Liverpool play in between. More and more lines broken, asking the question as to whether you stick or twist in the press.
Fellaini’s constantly dangerous, constantly getting United up the pitch and taking men out. What’s staggering about United is they are committing so many Liverpool players with only four men ahead of the ball. The back four, Carrick and Herrara are constantly in support. They show and show but don’t break forward.
Off the ball, United rarely press Liverpool’s back three. They let them have it but deal with Allen, deal with Henderson. The Reds don’t get going for 26 minutes. They don’t play at all well, Moreno especially toiling and United deserve their lead.
Then something changes. United’s energy level? Rodgers getting a message on the pitch? It still isn’t great from Liverpool but it stops being great from United. Finally Liverpool get a foothold in the game and their first decent five minutes results in Lallana missing when he really should score, the goal gaping. These are the chances he has to take. It is these which justify his place and position in the side ahead of others.
Henderson is suddenly far more involved. He’s higher, pushing on. The crowd responds and the place is in furnace. It’s suddenly the minimum requirement of a performance. Liverpool rattling into challenges. United get it up the pitch and the half peters out, Sterling now toiling. Rodgers gets them in one goal behind. Liverpool should have parity. Liverpool should be further behind. Pele arrives on the pitch with United’s supporters contemplating what is probably their best half of the season. Rodgers gets them in and Lord knows he needed to.
He gets them in. He changes it. Brings the talismanic captain on. Looks like he has changed the shape. Hard to tell because we only have 48 seconds of data. 48 seconds. 48 seconds where Gerrard looks imperious, wins a big tackle, gets it and gives it and is nothing but brilliant insofar as you can sitting in and then that.
That’s outrageous. Outrageous and stupid. I’m writing this in the taxi on the way back from match and we’re heading in town and we’ve just been told he’d apologised unreservedly and taken responsibility. Takes the sting out of me ranting and raving. But still. But come on, just outrageous.
The grief Sterling is getting is outrageous as well. Every mistake greeted by a howl of “one hundred and fifty grand a week, lad!” And then some form of expletive. He’s trying his best, completely out of the game on a flank while Lallana is ineffective. He gets moved forward, Gerrard gets sent, Balotelli comes on, he dutifully trots to the other flank where he works hard as well. Final third players get one hundred and fifty grand a week, but final third players need to be allowed to get into the final third.
Still, Liverpool score and Liverpool work. Rodgers does what he can from the sidelines but by this point Liverpool’s ship has sailed. Mata scores a cracker with United’s second shot on target but they deserve it, deserve the cushion.
Liverpool deserve nothing. A night, a week, a month collapses around us. We’ll need to find a way. We always find a way.
Let’s hope.
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Pics: David Rawcliffe-Propaganda
So disappointing that was , such stupid heat of the moment thing to do by Stevie also Skrtl probably facing a ban after the follow through on De Gea. Nothing much else to say really hollow inside tonight.
Rodgers got it so so wrong today. At OT, United attack and goals came down our left and it doesn’t seem like it was addressed prior to this game. Baffling! IMO Gerrard should have started ahead of Allen and maybe, Johnson at LWB.
Two defeats. Common denominator: No Lucas.
We didn’t need more Gerrard we needed Lucas’ savvy.
We needed either or even both. We looked like rabbits caught in the headlights. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Liverpool side more in need of a Gerrard than the one that played that first 45 yesterday.
There will be days when you’re out-played or the other manager out-thinks ours and you just have to take it on the chin, but at home against United I expect to see, you know, the odd tackle here and there.
Let’s be honest, as much as the results have been good recently a lot of the performances haven’t been. In some ways I could see a result like this coming, although I’m happy to admit I didn’t think this Man Utd team had it in them to boss us the way they did, even if we had a bad day. Which is worrying.
We had Gerrard, Brownie, It was all over in the bat of an eyelid so you could be forgiven for missing it. Would you really have wanted 90 minutes of that?
Those who criticized the club for stalling over a new contract may wish to review their position. The club and the manager have got it right.
Yeah, well I was assuming it went without saying that I didn’t want to see a 48sec Gerrard cameo, but I’ll know better next time and spell it out explicitly in case people like you get the wrong end of the stick. FFS.
And I don’t see that it’s ever right to stall over a new contract. Either agree one or don’t, but I don’t know that any good has ever come from “stalling”. Moreover, whether club is right or not was not decided by anything that happened yesterday. He fucked up and he knows he fucked up, but that doesn’t define either his career or what he still offers on a football field. The results since Gerrard limped off against Spurs have been mostly good, but there have been as many ropey performances as there have good ones (maybe even more so). The more you think about it, the more obvious it seems that a result like that against a top four side playing well was pretty much inevitable at some point. We’re still capable of beating anyone on our day, but the only decent 90min performance since Spurs was against City. Besiktas (both games), first half against Southampton, most of the game against Swansea, first half at Palace, all of the Blackburn game – none of any of that was close to top four level and Gerrard didn’t kick a ball in any of it. It’s entirely possible we’d have been no better or even worse if he had played, but the evidence that Liverpool will inevitably move forward without Gerrard is thin on the ground. That theory was put to its biggest test yet at lunchtime yesterday, and Gerrard-less Liverpool came up way short. If we’d have gone in 3 down no-one could have complained.
We have been playing pretty well, quite solidly, without creating that much. But given the number of games we have played and the lack of an in form striker I think it has been understandable. We really need to kick on for this last batch of games though.
Why on earth d’you think it would have been different had he started? Can you imagine how frustrated he’d have been in that first half? Might have been different had he played in Lallana’s position, but he’d have been overrun in the centre, we’ve seen enough evidence of that in the last couple of years. There’s plenty of evidence to suggest that we’re evolving into a better team without him: it’s called data and performance analysis or, in more straightforward language: results. He’s admitted as much himself in recent weeks.
I take your point re stalling, you’re right, he deserves better than that, but, at the same time, FSG would have been negligent had they awarded at contract at the same level without monitoring performance. Had he shown a willingness to take a pay cut or play less games none of this would have arisen: there would be no argument. He’d be a useful guy to have around the squad; but the fact is, he wouldn’t and he didn’t.
“Why on earth d’you think it would have been different had he started?”
There are two answers to that. The first is:
You think it could have been worse?
The second is:
He’s played in this fixture more times than anyone else, and scored in it more times than anyone else. It’s not like any other game, as you know, and his big match experience *could* (because no-one knows for sure) have helped. I agree that without formation/tactics being different we’d have continued to be overrun, but there’s at least a chance one or both would have been different if Gerrard had played. Even if we had started the same way with Gerrard, you can bet your life things would have changed on the pitch more quickly than they did. Who was managing the game on the field yesterday? When it was clear Utd were playing 15 yards further up the pitch than we expected without committing players to the final third, who was speaking to the manager to make the necessary changes on our side? And however frustrated he might have been at 1:30pm, it would have been less than he was at 2:30 just before he got sent off.
Rodgers: “He was probably frustrated having watched a first half where we didn’t make a tackle”.
He wasn’t the only one.
Take look at the past 8-and-a-half games since Gerrard limped off against Spurs. We won 6, lost 2-and-a-half and any objective analyst will say that we got more than we deserved to out of a few of those games (Southampton should have been out of sight, Swansea deserved at least a point). The only good 90min performance was City (and it was very good), but the heaps of evidence that show we’re a better team without Gerrard isn’t there, at least not performance-wise. The first half yesterday illustrated that in spades.
The contract situation is almost certainly down to the fact that Rodgers wanted Gerrard to be a squad player whilst grooming him for future coaching/managing, but Gerrard wanted to play most games. It’s about game time. The pay-cut stuff is just a cheap shot. No-one thinks it was about money and I suspect you know that as well as anyone else.
Completely agree with you this time Brownie. We really needed someone of Gerrard’s stature out there for such a big game, and if he plays from the start there is no way he makes that tackle.
If he was fit, I would have gone for Lucas instead of Allen but could have been convinced about starting Gerrard instead. My guess is that Rodgers’ gut was telling him to play Gerrard, but his head was saying to stick with the team that has been picking up the results. Our game needed more passion (although not as much as Gerrard ultimately displayed), and lord knows the crowd needed it. The magic is indeed over if the ground can fall dead silent 20 mins into such a match against Man U.
Statements “Biggest game for 20 years” get bandied about a lot (probably every year at least) but make no mistake that was a big game and our young side got caught in the headlights for the first 20 up against some very experienced players. Couple that with Man U looking a million times better with Carrick back in it and Swansea showing Van Gaal the way to get at us and it wasn’t pretty.
That said, we still showed a bit and I would have loved to see what we would have done had Gerrard not got sent off. Even still we could have nicked a second at the end and it wouldn’t have been undeserved.
Reckon the 3-4-3 is over now at least against the better sides, and we should bring Lucas back in to a midfield 3 with Allen and Henderson and play Raheem, Coutinho and Sturridge up front against Arsenal. As if anyone is set up to do what Man U did to us it is them.
With Skrtel set to be suspended and Moreno looking more and more suspect as a quasi-wing-back, I think Rodgers’ hand is almost forced to revert to a back four. I’m assuming he’ll go with Sakho and Toure and I think you could be bang on with the mid and front three.
Wow. You’re deluded, on so many levels. When was the last time Gerrard managed a game for us?
TAW have confirmed that he wasn’t happy with the money on offer, why do you continue to deny it?
“TAW confirmed…”
Did they? Genuine question rather than being a smart-ass. I listen to most of the pods but I didn’t hear that. And is that more conjecture or word from someone in the know? Everyone seems to know someone, don’t they? From Rodgers’ own mouth it was about lack of game time and the fact Gerrard wanted to look at a new career opportunity for himself and new life opportunity for his family. Once it became clear he wouldn’t start as many games as he wanted to, I reckon the decision to move on is taken there and then. At that point, why would either party bother discussing financials? They could pay him 3 times what he’s on now and he’s not going to stay to play in the League Cup and home games against the promoted teams. It isn’t blind loyalty that leads me to this conclusion but common-sense.
As for being deluded, you may want to turn on your TV or radio from time to time. You couldn’t move for discussions about SG’s 38seconds today and every pundit who offered an opinion on the subject reckoned Gerrard should have played from minute one. I’m sure there’s a degree of hindsight at work in some of this and at least some acknowledged that Rodgers’ selection was entirely understandable given the preference to not change a winning team, but there was consensus that this game was one Gerrard should have started, for his experience if nothing else. This may be a departure from TAW comments-box groupthink, but the idea that only one-eyed Gerrard groupies and dunderheads think he’s good enough – *for some games at least* – for this current LFC midfield is your own delusion.
They responded to you directly the last time you made this argument. You have a very short memory Brownie.
As for pundits, please. Most of them think its still 2005. Supporters noted the drop off in performances a long time before pundits acknowledged it, they’re embarrassing.
He’s been a fantastic player for us but his form has dropped this season. There’s no shame in it, he’s given his all over the years for the club, but he just doesn’t have the pace anymore, age and injuries do that to you. I just wish he could have adapted his game like Ronnie Whelan. Carrick’s another good example, plays the game with his head.
Carra didn’t think he should start by the way, but what does he know? Hindsight’s always 20:20 isn’t it?
Sterling on the wing must end now. He’s the new David Villa, not the new Aaron Lennon. Give him some respect and let the lad play up front with Sturridge.
This. 100% agree.
The shame was Ibe getting injured, as I think Raheem is being asked to cover for him
Gerrard is a conundrum isn’t he?
Seldom have I heard one player get so much stick as he. Even the tired old Suarez “You know what you are” song didn’t hit as hard as, “You nearly won the league/Gerrard fucked it up”
Was he so wound up that he had to go in really hard?
We didn’t lose the chance to win the league last season because of that slip, but it’s become that reason now.
Have we lost 4th spot now because of him, we’ll never know.
I love the boy, he’s out now for 3 games now and maybe his ship has sailed, time for pastures new and to leave the baggage behind.
Let’s get this out of the way, Gerrard was at fault, stupid at best, malicious at worst. Rogers must be Furious and delighted in equal measure, pissed that the chance to get into the game was snatched in under a minute but happy that his poor selections have been tempted by this red.
Sakho was by far the best player in red today, always a forward pass and always finding is target.
One shot on target. At Anfield. In a massive game. Against an average Utd side. Against an average Utd side who’s back 4 was Valencia, Jones, Smalling and Blind. One shot on target. Is that acceptable?
We are clueless going forward. Two goals in 313 minutes. One a fluke at Swansea, today a deflection/goalkeeping error. Is that acceptable?
Twas ever thus under Rodgers. People say he’s a great attacking coach based on 6 months of Luis Suarez doing things on a pitch very few footballers in history could do. Its nonsense. We’re now 3 years in under Brendan and under him when we’ve been scoring, we’re conceding. When we’re not conceding, we’re not scoring. Balance? Non existant. Not the hallmarks of a top manager.
£120m and 5th or 6th place. Is that acceptable?
He’s a good young coach. That I’ve never disputed. But a top manager? Willing to make the big decisions? Getting a lot more decisions right than wrong? Tactically up to it against the likes of Mourinho, Guardiola, Simeone, Benitez etc? Even Van Gaal? The man to make us consistent title challengers? The man to carry on our tradition in Europe instead of the embarrassment we’ve endured this season and 2 years ago? No. He’s done the odd good thing but overall his consistency in his decision making and there being proven right has been severly lacking. Van Gaal made him look a novice today.
No trophies after 3 years (not that an FA Cup is any real consolation even if we do win it) and no top 4 come May means questions need to be asked.
We couldnt afford to miss out on ucl qualification given the money situation. Utd will never come out of it now. But Ive said all season this was coming didnt I? And you didnt like it. You’ll be utterly fuming Im right again. These views, proven right in October/November, (a hiatus when we played mostly shit teams and Rodgers did as many wanted, ie dropping Lovren, removing Gerrard from DM) today and in May. Will the deluded cretins ever face these facts though? I doubt it. You know who you are. Whose views are embarrassing now eh Robin? The idiots simply looking at results and not performances for the last month or two could see this coning if only they looked at things without their myopia. But then they wouldnt be idiots.
The sooner a lot of our fans get their head out of their arses, the sand, brendan’s arse, the clouds, wherever, the better. Look at things more objectively instead of delusion and hoping for the best.
Im craving for success. Desperate for a league title. Desperate for a run in Europe. But fingers crossed isnt going to cut it. Wake up and smell the teeth whitener for fuck sake before we lose another 3/4 years in the wilderness.
PS: Gerrard a selfish disgrace with no excuse, Sterling out of position, Sturridge a million miles from last seasons Sturridge, Can in awful form
WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH…give yourself an uppercut, you’ll feel better. Rodgers is doing a fine job. Lallana could have scored in the first half and that would have changed a lot of things.
What I meant by embarrassing was the way you always pick up on the slightest negativity and amplify it. I always sense a twisted satisfaction from you when Liverpool slip up. I understand why you do it – years ago you said Rodgers wasn’t the man for Liverpool and now you feel your reputation is on the line. Thing is mate, no one cares what I say and no one cares what you say. People only write comments on here because they have a need to express their views about the club. It’s about them, not you, so let it go mate and start enjoying it again.
“I always sense a twisted satisfaction from you when Liverpool slip up”
You and hundreds of others, Robin.
A terrific piece… Only disagree with one point… Not sure Gerrard is selfish…. Think he must be gutted to be left out and it got on top of him….
People always waiting for that ‘I told you so moment’
I digress.
Fucking clueless
Come on I think you’re being a bit dramatic there.
Although I agree we didn’t play well at all today, I still fucking love watching this team.
Who do you suggest would do a better job that Rodgers?
Chris Mc, go back to fucking noddy land you turncoat. Sincerely hope you get hit by a Man Utd supporters bus. No sarcasm. I really hope you do.
Lots of people (media, pundits, mates) proclaiming United ‘ s brilliance today.
Did anyone else see that? I just saw us being massively shit for a half and then gifting them an extra man for the 2nd.
Thought they played well and we looked nervous at the start but over the whole game there wasn’t much in it.
The apology didn’t calm me down much, sheer stupidity. Calling Balotelli unprofessional the other week, surpassed that today. Gerrard aside it took us an hour to remember United are terrible on the deck at the back. Moreno is the biggest worry for me at the moment, continually caught out of position & punished today for it.
Spot on.
Chris Mc, I think you are going a bit over board here. Today’s a hugely disappointing result but we have taken 33 out of 39 points before the Utd game. This result has been coming for a while as our momentum has rather stalled since the City game but Rodger’s record over the past three seasons doesn’t suggest that he’s a bad manager.
He took over a side that finished 7th, 6th and 8th in the three seasons prior to his arrival and has finished 7th, 2nd and (probably) 4th-6th in his first three seasons. He has had two poor half seasons (1st half of 2012-13 and 1st half of this season) three excellent half seasons (2nd half of 2012-13 and both halves of last season, we were top at Xmas and finished 2nd) and a half season that we are yet to see the final results of.
He has made big decisions this season (dropping Lovren, dropping Balotelli, leaving Gerrard on the bench when fit); he has done pretty well for a young coach tactically against successful managers (beaten Wenger & Pellegrini) and has a good record against other well regarded young coaches (Pochettino, Martinez, AVB). He held his own against Mourinho’s Chelsea twice this season and while we haven’t beaten Mourinho yet, Rodgers is far from he only coach to be in that group. As for Guardiola, Simeone or Benitez, we don’t know as he hasn’t faced them yet (except for the 2-2 draw with Chelsea when Rafa was there).
We are all desperate for a league title, Rodgers got us closer than anyone since 1990 last year and looking around the league and in Europe, I can’t see anyone else getting us there any time soon. Our not winning the league is hardly something new but who is going to have a better shot than Rodgers? Who out there is going to get us to the league title? A young manager with ambition is our best chance, our only chance given the economics and the reputational hit the club has taken since we dropped out of regular CL football.
You want a decent run in Europe? Yep me too, but again Rodger is far from the only person to fail to deliver that this season. English football has been struggling in Europe for some time now and this has really hit home this season with no club in the quarters of any competition for the first time in over 20 years.
We’re all pissed off about today but we need some perspective. Rodgers has assembled an ambitious young squad that has real potential – yes it may not work but we have to give it time because there is no quick fix.
“Who out there is going to get us to the league title?”
Chris Mc, of course.
I’m happy with Rodgers and the turnaround has been great, but I do worry that our momentum stalled when he had time to coach the players. Just a theory, but we’re often at our best when we have game after game.
We had our best run last year when we were playing once a week no?
We were playing one game a week for most of the season. I hope I’m wrong, anyway!
Yep, English teams could teach the Greeks a thing or two about exiting Europe.
Chris Mc, I know that everyone is going to be in a foul mood after a defeat like that, but your post would look more at home on the RAWK boards (where I’m sure scores will be being settled as we speak, by angry men with long memories).
Last season we used a very small group of players and got away with it. We needed several new additions and it doesn’t take long to spend 120 million when you have to do that. Most of the signings have worked out well, following a very difficult bedding-in period. United spent 60 million on Di Maria, who wasn’t even picked to start today.
As for Rodgers not being amongst the World’s best managers, we are not in a position to attract anyone better – the same goes for players. Our glory days are ancient history now. We think of ourselves as being amongst the top clubs on the planet, but the facts just don’t bear that out anymore.
We are unfortunate to play in a league where there are only 4 places up for grabs and 6 teams are throwing enough cash around to mount a serious challenge for one of the spots each year. 2 of those places are now locked up by Chelsea and City, who will always be able to outspend us. We need to dislodge either United, or Arsenal, to qualify every year now – both well-established Champions League sides.
Which manager should we be approaching and which players should we buy? If they are better than what we have, then they probably won’t want to come here. Other clubs can make more attractive offers to them. They can offer more money, Champions League football every season and a place where they actually want to live.
Rodgers is doing ok for me. The season started very badly, but he has rescued it and we are not quite out of the race yet. However, even if we do qualify, we face another mountain to climb in the next campaign and that is how it will be for the foreseeable future. A constant struggle to keep up with clubs in a better position than us.
We have to keep reinventing ourselves, just to stay ahead of the curve. We have enjoyed a good run, but the Swansea and United games do indicate that teams may be starting to work us out again and that it will soon be time for us to take a different tactical approach.
Rodgers has shown an ability to solve problems, as well as being able to deal with the pressure. We also play good football under him. If we got a new manager, we might improve but I very-much doubt it.
The problem is not with the manager, the owners, or the players. The problem is with the situation we are in and the teams that we have to outperform.
You make some reasonable points but a recurring theme in your posts is that we can’t attract top players because they don’t want to live here. I disagree that this is a factor. It’s down to wages. Look at the players City and United have signed and that’s down to one thing – what they’re being paid.
Nobody is asking Liverpool players to lodge in a room in a terraced street near the ground are they. They could easily commute in from Cheshire, Formby, The Wirral etc.
Just watched a programme on Eden about the seven ages of starlight to take my mind off the game and give me a sense of perspective- 13 billion years as opposed to an insignificant 90 minutes.And then it got round to massive stars running out of gas and turning into ruinous black holes and suddenly millions of years condensed into 40 stupid seconds. No escape.
United putting in their best performance of the season (easily as well – they’ve been rubbish whenever I’ve watched them although I heard they were good against Tottenham) and everyone but Sakho and Mignolet funnily enough losing their nerve a bit after months of looking so ballsy is the most Liverpool thing ever. As is forty something year old miserable bastards who hate life giving a 20 year old who’s trying his best at wing back down the banks.
Fair play to Van Gaal, he’s watched us last week where Swansea were the first team to find gaps in our formation and done a similar job while nullifying Allen. But with better players with cutting edge, like you say Neil.
At the end of the day, we will never know what would have happened if we were able to complete the game with 11 men.
Chances are, we would have at least got a point, in what was one of the most important 6-pointers we have played in recent years.
Gerrard has to take the blame here. We are only in this position because of better results that have been achieved since he has been out of the team. In less than a minute, he came on and undid most of the work his other team-mates had done since the turn of the year.
There is no good reason to pick him again, even if we make it to the FA Cup final. His Liverpool career has come to an end.
“Chances are, we would have at least got a point”
And that beauty of a theory is based on what, exactly? The way they played and we played AFTER the sending off can’t be used to support a theory of what might have happened if the sending off hadn’t happened. With 11 against 11 the best evidence we have for what would have happened is what we saw in the first half. if we’d have gone in 0-3 we couldn’t have complained. The notion that Gerrard fucked up, no question, but that doesn’t let the other 11 off the hook for what in many cases were abject performances.
And performances since Spurs have been mixed at best. Results generally good, but we’ve got more than we deserved from several games during this period. There’s an awful lot of self-delusion amongst our fan-base right now, including the notion that we’ve resembled anything like the side that finished last season like a runaway train. We haven’t come close.
No different to your theory about Gerrard starting, Brownie. A little consistency, please.
On an empirical rather than wishful or imaginary note, no-one can blame the skipper for the goals conceded, he wasn’t on the pitch! Moreno was out of position for both and had an absolute stinker of a game. I haven’t given up on him, but he needs to work on his game.
Who knows whether we’d have got a point had we kept eleven men on the pitch? It felt like the wrong change to me as we’d clawed our way back into the game by half time, but we’re all experts in hindsight.
“No different to your theory about Gerrard starting, Brownie. A little consistency, please.”
Oh please. My theory is based on:
1 – We couldn’t have been worse, and
2 – Gerrard has played in this fixture more times than anyone else and scored in it more times than anyone else.
Gerrard starting guarantees nothing and if you scroll up I make no prediction about what would have happened if he did except that we might actually have put in a tackle during the first 45.
The idea that’s the same as claiming we would have got at least a point 11 v 11 in the second half when the only 11 v 11 evidence we have is what we saw in the first half is risible. There is literally zero evidence to support the notion that 11 v 11 we would have got a daamn thing from that game. You can’t use the fact we did well with 10 as evidence as the game is completely changed by the sending off and the counterfactual is all about what happens if we stay at 11.
Of course, assuming Lady is right, what she’s actually saying is that with Gerrard playing in the second half we somehow turnaround an abject first half and overhaul a team that had until that point had given us a football lesson. What does that say about the initial team selection and Gerrard’s influence if she’s right?
Everyone’s opinion is valid, even if you don’t agree with them.
To poke the fire: our greatest enemies have just done the double over us, in a season when they are generally deemed to be shit. We spent $120 mil at the beginning of the season and started with two of the bought players, one of whom rated 2 out of 10 and the other was yanked at half-time. We look like finishing maybe 5th at best. Forget the FA Cup, it doesnt mean anything, unless as a pre-cursor to telegation.
I’m not expressing an opinion – just stating the facts.
*just stating highly selected facts to imply that we are in a tailspin when it was the first game we have lost in the league this year. The first.
Highly selected my arse. I gave a snapshot of the game. Choose what you will, we are 5th in a season where we EXPECTED to be vying. Next game (Arsenal) will either boost our delusions (which I almost share) or confirm that we are ordinary. Please yourself if these ‘highly selected’ FACTS offend you.
Highly selected your arse or not. For a start, how about the fact that it is effectively 110 million since Origi is a signing for next year (next you will be putting in all the zeros like Chris Mc), or the fact that we recouped 75 million of that by selling our marquee player around whom our whole style of play was built. Or the fact that in todays market, the remaining 35 million net buys you exactly 2 1/2 Borinis, and we invested it primarily in youth.
How about the fact that Moreno has actually looked pretty good for us for most of the season (only a week or so ago Neil was saying he was a very underrated player in our good run). Or that Can was also bought in the summer (that’s 3) and has played really well for us at times, although not on Sunday. The next game is important for our fading top-4 chances but will not make or break our “delusions”, as the team is only going to improve.
But the most important fact for me is that we are an incredibly young side, with a young manager, who are already competing and have a big upside. Imagine when this team is playing teams of the same generation as them and they have over +200 caps more experience, and Rodgers is an experienced manager who has seen all the tricks and managed many big games.
You (and many others) may have EXPECTED us to be vying but I have always thought that was unrealistic since it became clear that Suarez was leaving, and a good result would be vying for 4th as we rebuilt the squad (which we were up until the weekend). When Neil was asking for everyones points total at the start of the season mine was 78, which is still possible if we win our remaining games but probably ~72 is more likely. However, that didn’t factor in our front-line striker getting injured for half the season and being out of form for the remainder.
You see there are always countering “facts”, which could lead you to different conclusions. So you are never “just stating facts” and not expressing your own opinion.
Well maybe 200+ caps was a bit of an exaggeration but just checked and Raheem already has over 100 for us at age 20.
Hope we sort out his contract soon and all the dickheads spouting off at him give themselves coronaries so they are forced to stay at home and shout at their TVs.
Coming from a neutral position and having watched the game from an essentially objective position I think Neil has written an excellent summary largely matched by the posts that follow. Given the ramifications of this defeat for LFC (5 points IS a big gap this late in the season) the sense of balance is frankly, admirable. I fully expected Liverpool to win, to expose Utd’s slow witted defence. Maybe with 11 in the second half that might have happened, but that’s a moot point now. United were excellent for 20 minutes, there is a greater sense of shape about them than previously and it was evident against a crap Spurs performance last week.
Given the depth of the two teams resources, I can’t see Liverpool catching Manyoo now. I was convinced that LFC had the better organisational strengths, but on yesterdays evidence I suspect I’m wrong.
Now finally, I understand where those people saying that Jonjo Shelvey could be the new Steven Gerrard were coming from.
“THERE’S a Mancunian contingent with us today in the boozer. Good lads”
Best opening non sequitur since the Henry Millers “I have no money, no resources, no hopes. I am the happiest man alive”
Anyway, the game. The two most worrying things for me –
– Of the 11 who started, the 3 worst performers were the 3 of the 8 new signings. Almost a season in, and of the 8 how many can currently deemed a success? Has to be 0, 1 or 2 – depending on viewpoint, but either way, very low.
Very concerning,given the huge collective outlay, and significant individual outlay for half of them.
– Sturridge, I’m not a medical expert, but is there now a chance we won’t ever see his best form again, in the sense that cumulative injuries have taken their toll a la Owen, Falcao etc. Too early to judge, until the start of next season I guess, but I think the elephant is, now, in the room..
Oh, and Gerrard. Unfortunately he doesn’t have the stamina of fitness to start now, nor the mentality to be trusted as an impact sub, expect perhaps in the last 10 minutes as a last throw of diced. Especially with Lucas seemingly back to fitness. Hopefully Rodgers realizes this too, including in a potential FA Cup Final.
I don’t like your maths. How do you quantify a success? Moreno, Can, Lallana, Markovic and Manquillo have all played and contributed for us at different points this season. With the exception of Lallana they are all very young and are expected to blow hot and cold at different points (especially with fuckwit “supporters” yelling at them).
The point of the summer signings was to add depth to the squad, I think that is very hard to deny. No one was expecting Lallana to replace Suarez, just add something a little different, which he has at times, although not as much as we would have liked. I think it is fair to say that Lovren was a poor signing at this point but it is inevitable you get a couple out of 7 or so wrong. How many people would have judged Sakho a success after last season, most people would have been borderline at best, and look at how he is playing now?
Re Sturridge, I don’t see this lack of pace that you are worried about and it is ridiculous to making statements about his form going forward when he was out for much longer than he has been back for. He’ll come good, although I think he may need another dynamic striker up alongside him to bring out the form he showed last season though.
Lovren and Moreno have cost us alot of points. Can started well, but where these 3 play now they’re being targeted.
Balo, lallana, Lambert, markovic haven’t won’t us many points.
The first two are at or near peak of game, where the priced reflected it.
If you sign 8 players for north of 100m, 3 for 20m plus each. You need a number of them to hit the ground running, or at least be hitting form approaching a full season on.others can then develop later.
But That’s not happening for any of them. That’s a major concern.
The season will be a failure if we don’t make top four. I wouldn’t be looking to change the manager though, and a couple of duff signings aside, I’m ok with the summer signings: could’ve been better, could’ve been worse – it was ever thus. Rodgers is a dynamic, innovative young manager able to improve young players which, given FSG’s business model, is a must. We play football that’s pleasing on the eye and have a squad that will only improve with time.