#TAW11 Cover
NEIL ATKINSON is joined by Rob Gutmann, John Gibbons and Paul Cope after Liverpool’s season opening 2-1 win over Southampton.
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Letting Rob at the cooking sherry ruined the show for me. It was constantly like ‘we interrupt this sentence to bring you more from pub bore, who has just squinted at the game from row H’.
What was even more annoying was that he was just wrong about everything.
Especially Gerrard. He was over-praised last season. The fact is he was behind most of what we did wrong and he DID end up costing us the league, with a mistake made when everything was at stake. He’s one of our greatest ever players, but he would have been sold three years ago if he was from Hertfordshire and not Liverpool.
This season, I doubt we can be genuine contenders for the title. We should qualify for the CL, especially after watching United on Saturday, but I fear that Gerrard could cost us our place. As a club, we need to be less sentimental and look at the cold hard facts. Gerrard isn’t good enough for our first team anymore and constantly messing around with the midfield to accommodate him is hurting us.
If we play with Lucas as a sole sitting midfielder, with two offensive midfielders (neither of whom are Gerrard), we will just win more matches. Johnson has to go as well. He offers nothing and just looks like he has lost his nerve. I would be happy if he went on a free.
Sterling played great today, although I thought Ward-Prowse should have got man of the match. We got lucky today, but we will lose to a weak Premiership side at Anfield very soon, unless the Gerrard situation is addressed.
Agree about Rob slurring his way through this show, it tarnished the first show….. He’s normally okay, calling him a “pub bore” is a little harsh
Agree Gerrard had a poor game yesterday, but completely disagree on the rest of your Gerrard comments. He had a fantastic season last year as a player and a leader. Blaming him for not winning the title is verging on idiotic.
Since he’s moved to his deeper role he’s been excellent, he’s exposed only when he plays with a slower less dynamic player, like Lucas.
and yet it was when he was moved to that deep lying role that we went on that amazing run that took us within touching distance of the title. Was it 12 wins and 1 draw from 14 games?
To win the league we would have had to break the PL record for consecutive wins so blaming SG is very harsh. Why not blame Mignolet for flapping at that cross against Villa at Anfield giving them a second goal? Or Rodgers for setting up so badly in the game at all?
Or Kolo for the goal at West Brom that cost us a win?
Too simplistic to blame SG.
Whereas hearing Rob and the other guys let themselves loose a bit made it more worthwhile for me. Rob’s never exactly a shrinking violet, and given he was the contrary voice through most of the show, I think he played that (essential) part pretty well even as I disagreed with a couple of his assessments. The only “borish” moment was maybe the “Am I right or am I right?” bit, but personally I found that pretty funny. It’s football chat, not foreign-policy talk.
Em! bit of an agenda there mate.
“Man of the match first half”? Thats man of the first half now isn’t it?
Let’s not be too hard on either Rob Gutmann or Steven Gerrard. I’m sure they are both just trying to their duty under difficult circumstances. I don’t mind a bit of alcohol-induced vehemence and a slightly boozy vibe from time to time. It gives me an impression these are real people talking about football and not yet another ensemble of pseudo-folksy pundits desperately trying to come across as having an edge without offending anyone. Just as long as things don’t turn into a complete shouting contest. Today came close at times, which can be a bit annoying when you’re sitting there with a headset on pretending to concentrate on your work. But then again nobody is forcing me to listen, right?
Huh… Funny how TAW attracts the incoherent ramblings of drunken middle aged men…..
Any way regarding the recent match:
I was saying to my Polish neighbour Andrzejck, “I think the tenacity and hustle of Henderson and the silky slithering of Sterling should earn us a good few victories this season”.
I think he agreed with my observations when he replied, “Proszę zostaw mnie w spokoju, kurwa pijany idiota. Nie dbam o swoje rzeczy lub jakiejkolwiek rzeczy trzeba powiedzieć. Odejdź Właśnie ukończyłem dwadzieścia godzin przesunięcia w Wincanton.”
well, that’s just crazy talk crazybob..
Ha! Actually Google translated that. You are crazy, Bob.
Also, Glen Johnson’s generally been poor for 18 months and the odd good touch he has when he remembers the player he was doesn’t change that. The Glen Johno of 2009, 2011 and 2012 deserves to leave Liverpool with more on his list of honours than a sole league cup winners medal but if Kelly is let go when he’s on much smaller wages and hasn’t been given the chance to play himself back in from a big injury I think Johnson’s very lucky.
The thing is if he was simply incapable of playing at our level he’d be getting less shit in the pub and would just be funny (think Cissokho last season or Enrique sometimes). He has frustrated because he’s got the talent. Hope he turns it round and proves everyone wrong (myself included, obviously) but right now I can’t see it.
so, once again we see how dire SG and Lucas are together, dropping the midfield much to deep. Was BR thinking of next week at Citeh? Or has he just forgotten how bad it was at the start of last season?
I can only think that Can wasn’t ready to start for some reason. Perhaps Allen and Hendo are to be the starters at Citeh with SG.
If Coutinho plays forwards again he might struggle to impose himself in the way he does from central MF. He’s not the complete player that some think. We also limit ourselves with our new guys not being fit which limits options to change the game. Shame this game is so early in the season.
Thing is, can you really introduce Can for the Citeh game? Seems a harsh way to start. Soton at home would seem far and away the best play for a new player.
Stop saying ‘Citeh’. It’s shit.
Think more outside the box. Like crazybob.
Hey all,
Not too bothered about the drink. The lads don’t do it too often. We are all
entitled to a bevvie, first game of the season ffs.
About the midfield, re-watching the match now and the gap between the
defensive two and Coutinho is massive. Too big by at least 10 yards.
There is no cohesion there, and the Saints were having a field day in
this space especially in the 2nd half. Nominally 4-2-3-1 but actually played
like a 4-5-1 or even a 4-6! Coutinho was too advanced and ganged up on
by Wanyama and Schneiderlin. I think we look better as a 1-2 pivot instead
of a 2-1 pivot. What you guys think?
JonnyS, Toure WAS blamed for what amounted to just a few mistakes and he soon found himself out of the picture. Mignolet keeps his place by being a great shot-stopper, but he still needs to improve. He’s only 26 though, so it could be argued he should be given a bit more time.
Gerrard just makes mistakes time and time again though and he’s now in a position where these mistakes put us in immediate danger of conceding a goal. He’s by no means alone, with regards to this but we can now put out a more effective midfield 3 without him in it. I get the feeling that we now feel he is owed another season, just because it would be unfair for him to end his career in such a cruel way (the end of the last campaign).
Last season was about Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Henderson playing out of their skins. The remainder of the team was pretty weak. Gerrard still had his moments, but they are becoming cameos now. Its time for a great player to move on or preferably retire after a season spent on the bench. He can still come on late in games and make an impact as an attacking player with 15 minutes to go.
I’m old enough to have watched his entire career and for me he has always looked more convincing the further forward he has played. As an attacker, you can make mistakes so long as you have the quality to do brilliant things as well and he still has that in his game. The last thing you want is Gerrard around the centre-backs and facing his own goal. That has cost us time and time again.
We have got some good central midfielders now and they are capable of filling the void left by Stevie, who deserves a statue outside the ground for his overall contribution throughout a fantastic career..
As for Rob, I agree he is usually good value on the show. We are all boring when we are hammered, it just doesn’t feel that way at the time!
Well, I know this game is all about opinions, but mine is that you were watching a different game last season. And what is all this “time and time again” stuff all about?
The quicker Gerrard is benched the better. The man is a hero, but it’s becoming painfully obvious that his time has arrived. There’s been a better balance in midfield with Gerrard not in it ever since his groin went in 2011. However, his main qualities have meant that it’s paid to adjust the team around him anyway.
It’s not that he’s not mobile or agile enough (which he isn’t). It’s the fact he looks like he doesn’t have a natural instinct for what’s going to happen in front of him whenever the opposition attack. And his body language is looking increasingly like that of an old man who can’t turn fast enough or protect the ball properly (see Joe Allen).
I’d save him mainly for the Champs League where the pace can be a bit slower and where his leadership will be vital.
Sense being spoken about Gerrard by LadyInTheVan and Harry. Thought Rob’s defense of him was embarrassing. How anyone with an objective eye could watch Sunday’s game and say Gerrard was better than Lucas is astonishing to me. But then Stevie is Stevie, isn’t he?
Im too young to remember King Kenny playing and I know there is not really a comparison in what they won while at the club, but I have Stevie as our greatest ever player because for large spells in his career Gerrard has had to win matches by himself while his teammates were dross.
But just as Dalglish’s past never stopped me criticising him during a disgraceful final year in his second spell in charge, so Gerrard’s past won’t stop me criticising him for his performances either. He was abysmal on Sunday but more than that, much more than that, so was his attitude. And that’s the elephant in the room here. Why is no one is willing to talk about it?
You can forgive a player a couple of bad touches, misplacing a few passes, making wrong decisions when lacking confidence and generally not being himself. But when that person, the captain no less, is designated to play defensive midfielder and he deliberately places himself in positions not to make tackles or to track back, then that’s out of order. To stroll around and allow much less gifted players get at your centre backs without so much as a fight was shameful.
What’s he in the team for? Set pieces? Is that it? Set piece delivery alone? Really? That’s it isn’t it? What more does he offer nowadays? Sorry, that’s not enough. That simply cannot be enough if we want to achieve anything let alone a title challenge (unlikely anyway). Jordan Henderson is very good with a dead ball too. Not quite as good of course, but good enough.
Neil said in this podcast he doesn’t think the manager’s that bothered about Stevie carrying out his defensive duties. Sadly, I think its more a case of Brendan not having the balls to tell him whats what and/or bench him.
As someone said above, this is sentimentality gone too far. For years now Gerrard has had others do his running for him. On Sunday it was worse than ever. Sorry, if we want to get to where we’re going, Stevie must play a lot less games. What we did last season was not because of him (nor in spite of him) and he’s a year further down the line when deterioration comes fast.
On the podcast itself, it was ok. Not that fond of TAW when drinks are involved as the lads lose track of what it is they were talking about and the show becomes a bit disjointed.
I like the idea of one of the boys standing out to disagree with the others (generally too much agreement occurs) – but Id like that person to be a bit more realistic and to challenge the positivity of the others, not challenge them by being even more positive than they are! On this occasion Rob got a little bit too loud, had one too many, had a bit too much air time and was generally wrong. A lot. But I like Rob.
I generally like Rob’s contributions but was pretty surprised by his comments here. A bit of (ahem!) sober reflection might change his mind about Gerrard. To suggest he had a 7 out of 10 game was surprising to say the least – I spent most of the match wondering if Gerrard was playing!
On the game itself, difficult to know what happened. Last week against Dortmund, Can went off at half time to be replaced by Lucas and we looked much better. So, it’s a bit “Monday morning quarterbacking” to say it was obvious we’d struggle because Lucas started. Perhaps he was playing a little further forward when he came on against Dortmund??
I think some of you have been dropping acid. However pissed Rob was, he’s making more sense than most of the Gerrard detractors on here, some of whom I seriously doubt are LFC supporters at all.
It’s one thing to say he had poor game on Sunday (I think the same could be said for at least 6 of the starting 11), but all this ‘his time has come’ and ‘he only contributes at set-pieces’ stuff is unmitigated bullshit. We’re one feckin’ game into the season after the last, when he captained the side to an 86pt second place and came runner-up in the football writers’ player of the year vote, as well as being short listed for the PFA award. These are not baubles given out by dewy-eyed Gerrard fanboys who are still watching re-runs of 2005, but by the normally LFC-antagonistic press and Gerrard’s playing peers.
The fact that Gerrard-Lucas doesn’t work in the current set-up doesn’t make either a bad player or suggest that one or other is ‘past it’. That’s simplistic drivel. There *may* be a case that can be made for leaving Gerrard on the bench for certain games, but no-one on this thread has shown any sign of being capable of making it.
I wasn’t judging on Sunday’s strange performance alone. You’re saying you don’t mind the look of Stevie struggling to track back with legs that refuse to do his ability justice anymore? It doesn’t worry you when you see a pass into pressure to Stevie from one of the defenders? And I’m not some idiot talking about that time he slipped just to emphasize a point. I’m saying every time he gets the ball and is properly pressed he looks like he’s right on the very edge of his physical capability. I’m saying if he’s not a 100% every game, those slips are looking all the more likely. Going forward his short and long passing is still great –often times it’s sublime. In fact, that’s something he’s actually managed to improve on further still over the last couple years. But that’s only half the job.
Last season was great and Steven was great. But only great going forward. You can’t seriously be saying he had a blinder of a season in his DM role with 51 goals shipped? Sure, more than one factor contributed to that, but if were talking numbers there’s one for contrast. It seems blatantly obvious to me that he’s not suited to this defensive role. I can’t believe so many are buying into this notion of him being on par with Pirlo or whoever. Great players can at minimum do an alright job anywhere on the pitch. But it only takes the active usage of one’s eyes and brain to see this is not his correct position and never will be.
It’s partly a case of better players around them, but looking at the likes of Yaya, Busquets, De Rossi, Mascherano etc. shows the difference between a natural DM and Gerrard. If/when Stevie is replaced by someone at the level of to those listed above, it’ll become clear as day as to what we’ve been missing out on (strictly talking about the DM role here!!).
So as per you, Gerrard’s job is to be great going forward *and* to be among the world’s elite as a DM? That’s some brief. I’ve got news for you: Gerrard is not picked and doesn’t play as a DM. That is not his role. Where did you and others get this idea? Just because he plays deeper that does not make him a DM any more than it makes Pirlo a DM. Why do you think Pirlo plays with Marchisio at Juve? How many last ditch tackles have you seen Pirlo make? Gerrard’s role is to link play and launch attacks when the opportunities present themselves. Just like Pirlo, in fact. Once you understand this, your assessment of Gerrard’s contribution should change.
To answer your first question: Yes, as long as he (most certainly) is being played in a role that requires proper defensive ability. We obviously disagree on what his role and duties are, so this might be a bit pointless..
Valid point about Pirlo whose negligence towards defending is so blatant it’s funny. But it’s OK because he’s not asked to do it. Stevie is far more exposed in Brendan’s systems, especially against opposition that sit back and counter (=most of the opposition). When Hendo, Coutinho and Sterling are less focused on pressing and harassing the area in front of Gerrard and more interested in finding attacking solutions in the last third.
It’s against the likes of Arsenal, City, Soton who like to press high and keep the ball, where having Stevie as the lone deep-lying midfielder is a working option. That’s when he has the most protection (unless BR does something stupid like placing Lucas alongside him). But these are only a small percentage of all the games over a season. Most teams don’t look to dominate and constantly attack Liverpool.
Well said Brownie,
Look at Stevie’s passing such as the ones at Fulham and West Ham that broke the deadlock last season. He can switch defence to attack in an instance who else has that range other than Pirlo. What a weapon to have along with the high pressing and incisive movement infront of him
Another point is He really is a world football icon and I believe attracts big players to the club, who may not be if he was less prominent, players want to play with him.
Its only 1 game, if after 4/5 games performances are not at level expected then criticism can be justified and will see how big Brendan’s balls are, I think they will be brassy and shiny.