LIVERPOOL’S shambolic sacrifice of a silverware opportunity to a side still threatened by relegation was always going to spark a fresh debate about the future of Brendan Rodgers as manager, particularly with a potential top-class replacement in the shape of Jurgen Klopp now seemingly preparing his CV for a punt at the Premier League.
But what has been fascinating about the so-called ‘debate’ is how little debating actually goes on, particularly between Liverpool fans.
The Wembley wobble allowed the tabloids to do what the tabloids do. They sniff blood, circle and stir. They prod for reaction and count up the clicks. But when it’s fan v fan, don’t we all ultimately want the same thing? Aren’t we all striving and straining for a successful Liverpool Football Club?
Sometimes it doesn’t feel that way — and that applies to extremists on both sides of the Rodgers fence.
Parallels can be drawn with the current scramble from party leaders to persuade voters ahead of the General Election on May 7. Whatever your political persuasion, ultimately, what are you striving for? A fair society? The best opportunities for you and your family? It’s easy to forget the point when so much focus is placed on personalities, conflict, sniping and backbiting. Even the way someone eats a bacon butty is apparently of national concern while manifestos, policies and recent history of decisions? They too often take a back seat for debate that ultimately serves no purpose.
Too many times Liverpool fans have found themselves in similar situations regarding Rodgers. Whether it’s the treatment of Rafa Benitez, the pain of Roy Hodgson, or the unceremonious uncrowning of the King, it’s seemed for some that Rodgers was never worthy of the benefit of the doubt. The manager – perceptively, to be fair – referenced it himself on his arrival at Anfield to step into the shoes of Kenny Dalglish.
Back in June 2012, he said: “There are three types of supporters at every club. Number one is those who, no matter who the manager is, they love their club and will love their manager whoever it is. The second group is those supporters who will accept you but to earn their real respect you will have to be successful — and that’s fine by me.
“The third group are the critics, and you never change them. Ever. If you win 4-0 it should have been five, if you win the league you should have won three.”
A quick trawl of Liverpool forums or Twitter will show this applies as much now as it did then.
There are Liverpool supporters who will defend Rodgers’ every move. We’re not just talking context, or fairness, we’re talking placing the manager on a pedestal alongside greats past and present. “Built a team like Shankly did…” That song has rhythm — and Rodgers is a bright young manager who came close to winning the league — but that line crosses the line.
To the fans in this group anything and everything that has gone right in the past three years is down to Rodgers and Rodgers alone. When it’s the opposite – the players, the owners, the transfer committee are quickly mentioned in dispatches. Even luck gets the finger of blame before the manager does. It’s not necessarily a criticism. Blind faith, looking on the bright side, backing a boss through thick and thin — it’s what many perceive as the job description for a supporter. But what are we supporting here, the manager or the football club?
At the other end of the spectrum are ‘the critics’, as Rodgers christened them. The critics love to reference the manager’s teeth and tan; they revel in talking about a TV documentary that Brendan Rodgers had little or no say in screened three years ago like it was aired last night: “Where are your envelopes now, Brendan? Where are they now?”
The manager’s private life and living arrangements are fair game to the critics, too, even how he celebrates a goal gets a mention while “fraud”, “fake” and “salesman” are routinely thrown around to describe the manager of the team they support. Imagine disliking a political leader for how he eats a butty. Imagine disliking a football manager for who he rents his house to.
Ultimately, what’s the point in holding extreme views either way though? To put it bluntly, Brendan Rodgers doesn’t matter. Liverpool matters. What’s best for Liverpool matters. What makes Liverpool consistently competitive matters.
That basic fact is too often lost in the arguments, hidden in the smoke from online bullets across the Twitter battlefield. Stats here, quotes there. Brendan as David Brent this way and Rodgers in the sky with Shankly that way.
Perhaps the place to aspire to be is Brendan’s group two. Accept Rodgers as the manager. Give him a chance. He needs to win something, he knows that and he’s said so. Is three years long enough?
How he fares in doing just that should inform his perceived suitability and debates and opinions informed accordingly. They are allowed to change if things progress and they are allowed to change if things go wrong. Both things have happened during Rodgers’ reign at Anfield. Right now, fans are smarting from an unacceptable performance at Wembley. There’s an inquest taking place and so there should be. When there isn’t then we really have problems.
I had my doubts about Rodgers when it first became clear he would win the race for the Anfield hotseat. Back in May 2012 I was banging the drum for a name that made a statement – an experienced, world renowned manager — not a boss barely out of nappies in terms of top-level experience.
I thought he handled his first press conference as manager impressively. Journalists spoke highly of him, too, and relayed positive vibes from the dressing room. From then on in, I’ve watched a side grow into an attacking force that last season became the envy of the league as it came a whisker away from winning the thing with positive, front foot football.
I’ve also watched a manager repeatedly make the same mistakes when it all went wrong earlier this season and then quickly sell himself to the watching public — too quick — when things started to go right again (see pre-Manchester United press pieces, clearly on the back of briefings from Rodgers himself, that uniformly praised the manager for turning Liverpool’s season around).
Rodgers has struggled with the size of the job at times – the weight of expectation, the ghosts on the wall and the extra – and continuous – scrutiny that comes with the job at Liverpool. It’s why he was wandering around his kitchen in the middle of night and why he lost sight for a while of what he has brought to the club: attacking football.
Rodgers is clearly all too aware of what is said and written about him and likes to redress the balance from time to time. He doesn’t always choose the right moments, or the right words. Do fans really want to here that the occasion of a semi-final is too much for this team? Other times he has said exactly the right thing and represented the club with decency and dignity.
Good and bad. Light and dark. Shades of grey. And an assessment that no doubt applies to managers the world over.
I’ve watched a Liverpool side play some of the most exciting football I’ve witnessed in 25 years of going the match. But I’ve also watched a manager concede defeat for a Champions League spot far too early and consistently fail to win in big games when it matters. I’ve watched a manager tinker with tactics too much but I’ve also witnessed the same boss mastermind barely believable runs of form against all the odds.
I’ve witnessed players consistently bounce back and experience a second coming when it looked like the only way was out (see Henderson, Sakho, now Mignolet for example) but I’ve also watched a manager seemingly marginalise players he hasn’t bought and over-promote those he has in the ongoing political wrangling between dug out and boardroom.
Experience v youth is a reoccurring theme in Rodgers’ recent press conferences and we all know which FSG favours. The frustrations are clear to see. But it’s worth remembering that it’s a set up, approach and policy of FSG’s making, and one that has conflict at its heart whoever operates within it. Director of football via committee, which is what it is in essence, equals manager v boardroom spats. And they’re nothing new in football – Liverpool’s history is littered with them: “They are only there to sign the cheques.”
The Soccernomics book, known to a be a favourite of John W Henry, advocates “the power of minds”. More than one mind making decisions means conflict.
We’ve had a record £120m transfer spend in the summer only to watch Liverpool crash out of Europe twice and fail in every competition they have entered. And yet Rodgers still has a win rate of 53.3 per cent as Liverpool manager, comparing favourably to Rafa Benitez’s 56 per cent, Houllier’s 52, Kenny Dalglish’s (second spell) 49 and Hodgson’s 42.
Those figures bring with them questions of who the wins were against, in what competition, at what stage of the season and with what at stake but it suggests Rodgers has done pretty well overall in his three years despite the clamour to point out that the spell lacks a trophy. Regardless, it’s certainly not a disastrous reign, however you look at it.
So has Rodgers heeded the often harsh lessons he has been on the end of? How quick will his development be as a coach, a manager, a leader and a scouter of players?
Forget Rodgers and think Liverpool. That’s what the owners ultimately should do. Do Liverpool need to wait for Rodgers to develop or do they simply plump for more experience (something that could equally apply to the players favoured by the transfer committee)? It’s a perfectly legitimate question.
The mere suggestion of Jurgen Klopp’s name this week has sparked fury for some. I struggle to understand why. In an ideal world, Liverpool should be absolutely ruthless in its chase for on-field perfection. Other clubs aren’t waiting around for the supposedly ‘smart’ approach to transfers and contracts to pay off even if Liverpool are. Will any of the four clubs the Reds are routinely struggling to compete with go backwards next season? It doesn’t look likely right now. So what’s Liverpool’s plan? Same again?
Everything at Liverpool should inform being competitive at the top end of the Premier League and in European competition. Tomorrow. Not in five years or 10 years. Tomorrow. Now. There is FFP to consider. There is the budget to consider. There is also the status and standing of the club to consider.
That said then, and bearing in mind the two sides to the Rodgers story, both of which have merit, if a top-class manager, who has won titles in a European League and has come close in the Champions League, is (theoretically at least) available and interested in the Liverpool job should the club seriously consider him as an alternative?
Could Klopp prove a greater draw for players than Rodgers? Could he lift the club, unite the fans and would his appointment be a much-needed signal of ambition?
I’d be very surprised – concerned even – if at the very least a conversation referencing all that didn’t take place somewhere between here and Boston. That’s not to either stab Rodgers in the back or blow Klopp’s trumpet. It’s merely to deal in reality and consider what is best for Liverpool. There shouldn’t be opposition to thinking big.
I’m sure Brendan Rodgers, for all the mitigating circumstances that have made this season a disappointing (not yet disastrous) one, would be the first to acknowledge that this is how football works. After all, it was the very same ruthlessness that cost him his job at Reading, that put paid to Kenny Dalglish at Liverpool in his second spell as manager and offered Rodgers his tilt at a top club in the summer of 2012.
Referencing the dark days of earlier this season, and in particular the defeat away to Crystal Palace, Rodgers told of fearing the sack in an interview last month and said: “What I learned from that [his sacking at Reading] is it does not matter how much support you have in the boardroom — from the directors, the executives — you have to get results and you have to win.”
However realistic or not the target — and that’s a whole different piece — FSG expected a top four finish from Liverpool this season while Tom Werner said in February he would be “disappointed” if Liverpool didn’t win the FA Cup.
The former remains possible if improbable, about 6-1 according to the bookies, while the latter is a dream burned down by Liverpool’s collective choke on Sunday.
Whether Rodgers now gets the vote to continue into a fourth year is debatable and that shouldn’t be a dirty word. Football is harsh. Sport is unforgiving. Instead just have the debate. Journalists closest to the club today say he is safe. But the Reds could still finish anywhere from seventh to top four depending on how the last six games go for Liverpool and the teams around them. Rodgers needs to win games to make sure and he is relying on deflated players to do that for him.
Unlike those who have picked sides and aren’t for budging, maybe kingmakers Werner, Henry and Ian Ayre haven’t quite decided where to put their cross just yet. And maybe that’s just what is right and healthy.
What one manager or another *might* have done in Rodgers’ shoes is irrelevant. But what another *could* do certainly isn’t. What matters is Liverpool FC.
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A great measured piece. Your absolutely right its about the club not the manager though I’m sure those in Camps 1 & 3 would say that’s exactly what they are doing by protecting/chasing the manager.
This line sums it up for me:
“The mere suggestion of Jurgen Klopp’s name this week has sparked fury for some. I struggle to understand why. In an ideal world, Liverpool should be absolutely ruthless in its chase for on-field perfection.”
Absolutely spot on. Top class managers do not appear every year to be woo’d and if he shows the slightest interest we would be remiss in not going after him.
Klopp has seen his best players, have there heads turned by Dortmund’s richer rivals every season, would he want to compete on an unlevel playing field at Liverpool and go through the same thing again?
I feel its harder to be objective, after yesterdays car crash and especially Utd game and also Arsenal. Time to judge is at end of the season, look at everything as a whole, from top to bottom, part of that being the Mgr’s position.
However if fail to deliver performances in remaining games, and cement 5th(par) its time for a change.
It would take an exceptional Mgr, considering the resources that have been available,and not addressed in Jan to get into top 4.
Good this mate.
I personally think it’s a fait accomplis that someone else will come in. I think they have things that work in different aspects of the management of the club, but that don’t sit well together, so we’re left in the lap of pure luck as to whether the two coincide. The Committee, I’d suggest, are actually doing a very good job, and the club are right to pursue that to whichever logical place that takes them. I don’t know if that’ll involve Rodgers.
We need better leadership in the background too, and I’d guess, going by how they operate, they’ll address that the same way, but in football terms, if they commit to the Committee, they’ll secure the continuity they need. The youth development side works better than at most clubs, the scouting is pretty good (it seems the disconnect with the manager is the real problem), and if they’re gonna change their strategy re wages, they’ll have to realise it themselves.
So I think they need a manager who will work with the DOF structure that they’ve put in place around the manager in spite of the manager’s words from the start. Any European manager will work with that – people say they won’t, but they will- Rafa is an exception. Look at Koeman – he’s had input and worked with their people constructively. When it dovetails well, everything’s aligned and things get spurred on.
For me De Boer is a perfect fit due to the comfort with young players in key roles in big games. I really like him. The talk of Klopp is exciting but there are good managers elsewhere – Preudhomme is another example quietly winning big games against the odds. Paulo Sousa doing well at Basle as we saw first hand… there are loads of them who would play good football.
I like Rodgers but continuity and alignment are the only free lunch we get, and the only way to steal a march on better resourced clubs.
…”continuity and alignment are the only free lunch we get”
So change the manager? Or maybe you mean the continuity starts after we pay Brendan off?…. until that manager fails to deliver a league title within three years of course,
Rodgers is a decent manager. I am convinced Klopp in his shoes won’t do any better with this set of players now playing at Liverpool. The problem is with transfers. We buy badly. If the transfers are all due to Rodgers, he has performed terribly bad and must go. Whoever is making our transfer decisions and formulating our transfer policy and strategy has to go. He/they are the real problem. Until we get a system that buys players that consistently improve the first team and address the lapses in the team, we won’t go anywhere even with Pep.
I’m not sure about that. It’s alleged that the owners were mystified by Rodgers’ return to dull, possession based football at the start of this season, given his success with a fresh, dynamic approach last season. As was I. Klopp brings you that as a given. That’s where I see the alignment: between the type of football that made us fall in love with the club again, and the type of football Klopp has delivered consistently at Dortmund. I like Brendan, but the owners would be negligent were they not to consider a manager like Klopp who would appear to be a perfect fit for FSG’s strategy.
Do you think Klopp, with his reputation and CV, wouid be able to attract better quality players???
Do you think he has a detailed knowledge of the German league, where fees and wages are much smaller???
Do you think he knows how to compete in European competition???
Perfectly summed up. Rogers has been both outstanding and inspired at times, and then on other occassions full of hubris and completely outmanoeuvred. His recent constant tinkering with his setup hasn’t inspired confidence either.
I’ve been a supporter of his for a couple of years but the capitulation against Man Utd, Arsenal and now Villa tells me he’s got a massive uphill battle to climb and Can, Sterling, Sakho, Lucas, Llalana amongst others have all been isolated by Rogers or played out of position, and perhaps even contributed to some of the recent insipid displays. The team lacks confidence in the direction it’s heading is my concern.
I think Klopp is the lowest risk option going forward from here, I suspect he already has a clear vision, and I’m sure that his style (and name) will give a strong message of ambition and help bring in the 2-3 top players we need to fill key gaps (striker, holding midfield and right back most notably) and move forward. The backbone of a great side is already there, I think he can be the one to take it to the next level.
Great and balanced article.
It’s about Liverpool Football Club, and the club must always be looking for ways to improve. The club can’t be held back for Rodgers benefit.
FSG need to talk to Klopp and prove that they can snare a major European manager. Brendan Rodgers can’t complain after this season. As Michael Corleone said, “It’s not personal, Sonny; it’s strictly business.”
liverpool’s problems are all due to rodgers inability to read changing situations.he adopteda 3-4-2-1 formation in order to accomodate his most espensive signing,lallana, who is in competion with in-form coutinho.the systerm never won agst arsenal and agst van gaal who was lectured by brendan rodgers.he adopted the systerm again against aston villa who had earliar defeeated liverpool with same systerm.everyone in liverpool is learning the footabll game,players,manager,and owners.
In fairness, didn’t the 3-4-2-1 formation come about precisely because Rodgers needed to change things in the face of disappointing results? In the first half of the season he played the diamond, but that faltered due to Sturridge’s injury, defensive frailties and a dreadfully out-of-sorts Gerrard. He then played a 4-2-3-1 which again was ineffectual as it became apparent that Balotelli would not fit in as a lone striker.
Rodgers has always had a streak of pragmatism in him and that’s often been a big positive. The failure to secure proper backup for Sturridge by whatever means has been a big part of the team’s failings this season.
Not sure if Klopp would be a good fit for us, though he is certainly a manager who could bring a lot of positives, should Brendan be moved on. The problem with Klopp is that his teams are known for high pressing, high octane football. He is not a possession based coach, so breaking down stubborn defences will be a problem. Rafa faced this issue here and it wasn’t until 09 that he began cracking these defences, even then it wasn’t enough.
Dortmund have an xmas break & there are two less teams in the Bundesliga than the premier league. So the next question would be this; Can he implement his pressing game and sustain it for a full season in the premier league?
A big advantage of Klopp though is his name and his persona. He would attract players to come here and he would motivate them to give their all. I just fear burnout and the inability to unlock defences will be a huge problem.
Rafa is also available and we know he can do it. With a stronger board behind him, he could get back on track and surpass his prior achievements.
It must be clear that Liverpool is not a training ground for managers, the team must be challenging, the team must win. Anything less, and it’s not good enough. If we cannot bring in Rafa (or possibly Klopp), then I don’t see the point in discussing Brendan leaving as he can certainly do a better job than this year and not every manager could. I just wonder if Brendan can break through the ceiling and realise his potential or will he continue to be a nearly man, managing a team of compromises and potential.
Eh? I think you’ll find Bundesliga and CL defences are far stronger than those in the Premiership. He’ll need a good striker though; Dortmund haven’t really recovered from losing Lewandowski.
High pressing, high octane football????
Remind you of any team from last year.
“It must be clear that Liverpool is not a training ground for managers, the team must be challenging, the team must win. Anything less, and it’s not good enough”
You’ve obviously forgotten why he was released from the club then Conor. Just remember that he won’t have a Gerrard at his peak, a Carragher & Hypia & a Torres, and he will now have two clubs in manchester to deal with both of whom are stinking rich.
I’m pretty sure John & Tom are smart enough to realize that they would have a holy war declared on them if they ended up having to sack Rafa a second time. In short he’s not an option, so move on.
Spot on Gareth, I posted this yesterday in response to those who are letting their hearts rule their head:
There’s a difference between those calling for Rodgers to be sacked and those who think we should go for Klopp. It may seem like semantics, but I don’t want Rodgers sacked, but would be really happy were we to appoint Klopp: in other words Brendan hasn’t become a bad manager overnight, and there’s very few managers I’d consider an upgrade – Jurgen Klopp is one, and its a freak set of circumstances that sees his availability coinciding with a spineless performance on Sunday.
And:
It’s not a question of becoming one of ‘those types of club’ it’s a potentially one-off situation: one of the top young managers in Europe with demonstrable European and domestic success, that fits the club’s criteria and plays the type of football that would get the fans off their seats, has become available. I’ve backed Brendan but FSG would be failing in their duties as owners were they not to consider Klopp given the season we’ve just endured.
For the record Paul, It’s not that I wouldn’t have Klopp, more I don’t think he’d have us. Justifed or not, he’s currently being touted as the top of the list of available managers. I think it’s nailed on he’s going to City. If you want to dream he might join us then go ahead, there’s no harm in that but it’s very unlikely happen.
If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. That’s not my point, mate. Managers like Klopp don’t become available that often, the club should express an interest. I’m happy either way tbh.
And where does that leave Rodgers if the club express an interest and he says ‘sorry, I’m off to City’?
Do you really think the club will take out a piece in a newspaper expressing interest?
These things are done behind closed doors. If Klopp rejects us, Rodgers will never know. They did it with De Boer before Christmas.
Precisely – remember the brouhaha when it emerged that Klinsmann had been sounded out to replace Benitez by Hicks and Gillette. The writing was on the wall for Rafa after that.
Ever heard of discretion, Robin? Players and managers are approached all the time, we only get the crumbs from the table.
Alan – do you realise what you’ve just said?
It’s all done so discreet that no one need know, like it was just before Christmas. Rodgers doesn’t even know we approached De Boer but you know, lol.
Paul – clubs, agents and press etc can’t be trusted to share your discretion.
robin crimes:
Rodgers has to know that calls are being made. Given our woeful performance on Sunday and that everyone and their mother knows that Klopp is moving on at season’s end. At least calls should be made between Ayre and Klopp’s agent. Has anyone watched BVB’s games? Does anyone remember this game:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/mats-hummels-and-roman-weidenfeller-jump-into-the-crowd-to-apologise-to-angry-borussia-dortmund-fans-after-loss-to-augsburg-10025573.html
Whose supporters are that passionate? I think he’d come to Liverpool over City as long as FSG met his demands. That’s the big question to me. Whether FSG would agree to his demands(money, roster control and so on), what ever they were.
Not to mention you’ve just knocked around 10mill from the transfer kitty this summer by having to pay-off the remainder of Rodgers’ contract. Add Benitez’s 6mill and whatever we had to pay to get rid of Hodgson and Dalglish, and you’re approaching 25mill maybe. Or a big chunk towards that world-class, 20-goal-a-season striker we’ll always talking about..
Phil, I’m not sure what you mean by FSG would have to agree to his demands. If you mean tweaks then fine but they’re certainly not gonna change their policy for anyone.
Look mate, this is my full take on it. If we appoint Klopp tomorrow then I’ll be made up. It’d be an exciting change and I think Klopp is the type of personality I’d like to see at the helm. But, if you look a the circumstances of last week combined with the bookies prices then I’m not even gonna think about it.
There can be 100 narratives to the Rodgers story at Liverpool so far but mine is this. For years I’ve wanted Liverpool to beat shit teams consistently. Both this season and last we’ve had two runs where we’ve done that. But, this season still hasn’t been good enough. Sunday wasn’t good enough. We’re still failing against the big teams (City aside, but only because of Pellegrini’s naivety in big games). Two semi’s shows we’re getting there but not quite enough. The problem for me is I don’t see it as Rodgers fault he can’t get us over the hill. Regardless of what people wanna say, I still firmly believe none of the other clubs could have done better if you take their strikers away. Goals are important in football and it’s the strikers who get the goals. Almost seems obvious to me. Through no fault of his own he hasn’t had any. With them he’s showed already he can get them playing. I think with some strikers for next season we’d continue to beat the shit teams, turnaround some of those games against the big teams, get out the CL (if we were in it) and turn those semi’s into finals. It’s a fine margin and strikers are those fine margins. I worry what effect starting again with a new manger will have. Do we want to be sitting here in 3 years saying ‘this is a transition year so 5th would be acceptable’. I don’t and so despite Rodgers short comings like some of his post match interviews recently I’m confident for our future with him.
I do have some sympathy for what you’re saying, but when you’re appointing your 5th manager in 7 years, you have become ‘that sort of club’ whether you like it or not.
Sums everything up well. He’s not the new Messiah and he’s not a ‘fraud’ (that word get right on my tits). Amazing how many view him either as a new Shanks or akin to Hodgson. Such little room for nuance and serious debate because people are so polarised. I don’t get it.
I’m biased coz I love Klopp, probably my favourite football person in the world outside of any Liverpool ones. So you can say I’m blinkered or whatever, I don’t care, I will be rational about the pros and cons of appointing him
First of all, I don’t understand the whole give the manager more time coz we are Liverpool and we don’t act like whoever. We kept Shanks at such a distance from the club that our greatest ever manager would say he feels more warmly received at Everton, all in order to allow for a more stable passage for Paisley to take over from.
We are Liverpool, we act in the best interest of the club and we’re geared towards winning things, all this phony gestures or perceived “good-will” that don’t help us get where we are don’t do anything but make a few people feel more morally superior inside
Secondly, as far as Rodgers’ reign is concerned, I was open to him when he first took over and I liked what he did very much the first season. Although we weren’t improving positional wise you can feel an improvement on the pitch. We had Coutinho Sturridge and Suarez who finally became the goalscorer that he is because we finally played to his strengths. You can feel the next season is up, if we can keep Suarez and keep those guys fit, which we did through a bit of tough work, and we ended up nearly winning the league on the back of Suarez and Sturridge
This season I am not getting the same vibe that we got the first season. We started worse than Hodgson for half a season (after spending 120 mil), then we switched systems and admittedly grinded a good run without playing spectacularly, but I just don’t feel it on the pitch in terms of what we’re trying to accomplish anymore. No more identity like the 1st season, it’s all just slow ponderous build up play that are conservative and non-adventurous the best of times.
And I don’t see where the improvement is possibly coming from, Sturridge, anything can happen, he might be permanently slowed down due to the injuries, he might get injured again. Then we have Sterling who acts like he is hot shit in a shisha pipe and demand the world when he hasn’t even done half as much as the little Brazilian who earns less than twice of what he’s demanding in wages. Sure Can and Markovic can improve, but I dunno whether by the time they’re ready, the likes of Coutinho and Sterling wouldn’t have gone somewhere else already
Then there’s the rumoured signings of Ings and Milner, underwhelming and midtable at best. Milner is good but he isn’t great, not gonna be a difference maker here. And even so, who else can we realistically attract that would give the improvement that we need? I don’t see how we’d do it, it doesn’t have the same hope of the 1st season and it feels more like another 5-7th finish again
It feels like Rodgers has hit a ceiling in terms of what he can do on the pitch and off the pitch with transfers, and any possible improvement is out of hope rather than anything of substance
If it doesn’t feel like he can take us any further then we’d be naive to not even talk to Klopp or try to lure him based on some stupid notion that we must be loyal to our current manager. Klopp’s transfers like Lewandowski Schmelzer Piscezek Hummels Gundogan etc cost no more than 4 mil each and some on a free, and some of them are absolutely top class in their respective positions in the world. THAT is how you do transfers. They built a double league winning team and CL finalist without having to spend big, but having an eye for talent all around the world. That’s FSG’s dream model
If we have to build a team again for a few years, would you rather the players develop under Klopp or Rodgers? The answer is a no brainer. Klopp might not come, but we’re be crazy not to ask
I was asked after the game if I think Rodgers should go. My personal feeling is no, but if he does I’m not that bothered. Liverpool have had no strikers all year. That’s fact. You can say Lambert, Borini and Mario are strikers but they’re not the strikers we need – I think even the most anti-Rodgers fan would admit that. so, with that in mind and also because of the consequences a change of manager brings I think he should be our manager next season and certainly think FSG will be looking at it like that. If we get someone who’s perceived as better, then good. I’ll be happy with that too. I’d guess Klopp already knows where he’ll be next season and it wont be Liverpool.
Think this season we’ve been undone by a dreadful transfer window last summer and injuries to Sturridge throughout the year. Ultimately we all know the buck stops with the manager but it does make you think who else is failing within the transfer committee and not getting key targets in and that could lie at the feet of FSG with the financial structure of the club. Not forgetting we scraped through an FFP enquiry this year.
For such the woeful start of the season it fair to say Rogers turned it around with a decent run having changed the system. I’m not sure he has reacted quickly enough to seeing that system come undone against better teams in the league. Arsenal & Utd both went heavy up top pressuring the back 3 and pulling the CB’s out of the middle.
As Villa proved at the weekend even an average team taking that approach can give you a chance. Is anyone really saying Sherwood is a tactical genius or did he just watch Monday Night Football and watch Carra take us apart frame by frame.
We play West Brom at the weekend and I’m sure they’ve now looked at it and will be saying to their forward line if LFC go 3 at the back then make THIS run HERE, pull the CB out wide.
For me Rogers got away with himself on Sunday, he said we’re still going to play this formation regardless of Arsenal and Utd, Without a ball playing CB (Sakho) in the back 3, with Lovren who’s been shite for most of the season, without any protection in front (Lucas) and then I’m even going 3 up top. So tactically for me he’s been done again and it smacked of a bit of arrogance from us to Villa.
Listened to the pod with Melissa yesterday and enjoyed the comments made about how we play our game best when we press. Whilst I agree with that approach for the main it doesn’t take into account what the team has just experienced or the physical condition of the players.
A great coach and I’ve said this on another thread has the confidence to bore the arse out the game, stifle the occasion, just to get the result. Was JM arsed that Utd had all the ball last weekend in ineffectual areas, nor was he arsed about how he played at Anfield last year, it’s just about the result at one given moment in time.
This end of the season is all about results forget about the performance, players are arguably playing with knocks, legs are tired. Having just been exposed by two top European managers then I maybe would of expected a tighter formation against Villa.
When people talk about 05 do they go “yeah do you remember when we played Juve away, we were shite going forward wern’t we, that was boring as fuck to watch, shite.”
Not convinced about Klopp either, his teams don’t defend either and I think he might of been found out.
The team on Sunday was only Gerrard for Lallana away from the team that beat City, so I’m not sure we could accuse Rodgers of arrogance in thinking that might be a decent line up given the players unavailable through injury.
I have made no secret of my aversion to Brendan Rodgers. His propensity for buck-passing I dislike, but can live with it, and the spells of thrilling football I admire, but I just can’t bring myself to give him the credit for it. To me, he’s a Harry Flashman who has now run out of luck…Sorry. He’s just not the sort of manager I want for LFC.
“Imagine disliking a football manager for who he rents his house to.”
This spectacularly misses the point. Rodgers didnt rent his house to anyone – he moved into a rented house and made one of his players his landlord. That same player was/still is getting far too many minutes on the pitch when you consider just how bad his performances have been. Thst is unhealthy and a highly inappropriate decision Rodgers took.
“He needs to win something, he knows that and he’s said so. Is three years long enough?”
He’s the first LFC manager since 1950 to not win anything in his first 3 years. He’s had time & money. Has he been an unmitigated disaster? No. Has he failed? Yes.
“I’ve also witnessed the same boss mastermind barely believable runs of form against all the odds.”
There was one barely believable run of form in this last 3 years. That was when we win 14 and drew twice in 16 games. It also just happened to coincide with Luis Suarez doing things on a football pitch few footballers in history could do. For that run of games we had the best player in the world running amok.
“I’ve witnessed players consistently bounce back and experience a second coming when it looked like the only way was out (see Henderson, Sakho, now Mignolet)”
Rodgers wanted to offload Henderson to Fulham in a swop deal for a 31 year old Clint Dempsey. No one else did.
Rodgers tried go bomb Sakho out despite him always being our best centre back. Some didnt see it, but those that knew anything about the player & could see how he would grow once settling into English football & learning the language did. But no, Rodgers decided to flex his mudcles & spend £20m on Lovren to replace Sakho as the Frenchman was a committee signing. Lovren, in just 9 months, is proving one of our worst ever buys.
Mignolet no doubt was awful and in November most of us thought he should go this summer so Rodgers gets a pass here. He doesn’t get a pass for dropping him “indefinitley” for Bad Jones and only reinstating him due to a Jones injury.
“And yet Rodgers still has a win rate of 53.3 per cent as Liverpool manager, comparing favourably to Rafa Benitez’s 56 per cent”
It doesnt compare that favourably.
Rafa never had the money Rodgers did but was far better in the transfer market. Rafa made a fair few mistakes in buying players, as all managers do (though not as many as Rodgers, who, as well as Dempsey we know he wanted Ashley Williams & Gylfie Sigurdsson) but he was quick to realise his mistakes & move players on, not keep them around and shoehorn them into the team to prove to everyone he was right about buying them in the first place. (Lovren played 19 times in a row)
More importantly, Rodgers never had Hicks & Gillette to contend with. He’s never been pushed towards the door, had the political infighting and told he needed to make a profit in transfer dealings over the course of 2.5 years. He’s never had asset stripping or administration hanging over his head.
I could also talk about win rates in Europe or in big games domestically but you sort of already hint that Rafa blows Rodgers away in these areas despite the above.
We need Klopp. Not want. Need. And im not having that its a done deal with City.
Klopp is a weird dude. Very old fashioned in his outlook on life despite being very new school & creative in his football. He’s as romantic as you get in the modern game. He loves us. He knows our history. He gets us. He’d relish the challenge. We could get him. If we don’t at least try for him & he ends up at City or Madrid winning leagues and Europesn Cups Im going to be gutted.
Unless we appoint another weird dude who knows our history, who gets us, who loves us & who’d relish the challenge. And if he happens to be a certain Spaniard managing in Italy who just so happens to have a house on the Wirral in which his family still live then all the better.
Amen to ALL of that!!
I think you have taken the win rate comparison quotation out of context by only focussing on Rodgers and Benitez.
At the risk of being pedantic this is the quote in full:
“And yet Rodgers still has a win rate of 53.3 per cent as Liverpool manager, comparing favourably to Rafa Benitez’s 56 per cent, Houllier’s 52, Kenny Dalglish’s (second spell) 49 and Hodgson’s 42.”
And the point that I think Graham is trying to make here is that the current manager has a win rate that compares favourably with his 4 immediate predecessors.
Dammit not Graham – Gareth. I slipped into the 80s there.
Chris:
You nailed it re: why Klopp would come here. All else being equal he’d probably jump at managing us versus City. So it’s up to FSG to make it happen. Would Klopp ever get this treatment:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Liverpool_coaches_banner.jpg
at The Etihad? Of course not.
I sure if he’s reading this he’ll be impressed by the loyalty he’ll receive one you “approve” of him.
Klopp is a big Christian as well, would get on well with Sturridge
made me chuckle
brilliant read this.
My only concern with Klopp would be, as Brian points out, that he may have been found out, tactically. I’m not convinced, I suspect he’s just lost one too many good players, but it is possible. It’s not long since his team destroyed Mourinho’s Real Madrid, though. At his best his teams player fearless football, and not many coaches have a victory like that over a Mourinho team.
His style of football at its best is devastating, we think we’re a pressing team, but we are a bunch of white old men on our deathbeds compare to Dortmund in their prime. Highest defensive line then everything in between is just systematic bullying from their players
Then they play it really fucking quickly going forward, the concept of taking a breather on the ball doesn’t apply to them. And they throw like 6-7 men in the box, then they run back into position quicker than Usain Bolt if they don’t score then they do it all over again. Their football makes you dizzy, it’s direct fast and all action, completely the opposite of what we’ve done this season
They have failed this season for loads of reasons, Hummels has basically done his best impression of Lovren all season and Weidenfeller the shit Mignolet. The World Cup fucked their pre-season and they really need that fitness base to sustain their game, plus quite a few of the German players were still on a hangover from the WC win
Then it’s just a loss of quality players that make them harder to break buses down, it’s not like teams never parked it against Dortmund for 6 years prior to it, it’s just that their players are very good so they work through it. This season they aren’t so good coz they lost them all
Bit of a perfect storm really, but if Klopp wins us two leagues and a CL final then I’m okay with spending one season down there a bit
Correction: slower than a white men in slippers.
“Found out tactically…”
And Rodgers hasn’t? Nominate a game he saved or won by his tactical genius. I can nominate a shitload that he lost by having no idea what to do.
Spot on. Great read.
As much as I’ve like Rodger’s over the last 3 years there is no questioning that this season has been a huge failure. I feel we simply cannot miss such a great opportunity in taking Klopp.
Managers are like players, if you can upgrade, you do.
I don’t think Klopp would be able to, or have any desire to work under the FSG transfer policy. That said, he clearly likes something about the club. Perhaps he’s a romantic.
Yep. It really is that simple.
No it’s not. Do you not think there were better managers available when Dortmund took a punt on the former FC Mainz boss who had just failed to get his team promoted back to the Bundesliga?
If every club were as short-sighted as “if there’s better, you get him”, chances are you’d never have heard of Klopp and you certainly wouldn’t sat here today calling for him to be the next manager of Liverpool.
I’m another unconvinced that Klopp is the answer if the question of replacing Rodgers actually has to answered. As another poster mentioned, Klopp has seen his best players regularly depart for what they perceive to be more attractive clubs, in the same way we have consistently lost ours – Alonso, Mascherano, Torres, Suarez. This season that situation appears to have finally taken its toll on Klopp and his team flirted with relegation for much of it (and they’re still only 9 points off it). Yet despite his side’s struggles his stock remains high. That’s why I see him taking advantage of this fact by moving to a team that offers him something different, a ‘final destination’ club for players if you will, where the only upheaval the manager faces each summer amounts to having to accommodate another superstar player. We’re not that club.
If you look at us dispassionately, FSG’s model is based on a rookie manager with undoubted potential, coaching rookie players with perceived potential (regardless of how much we have spent, that predominately is the type of player we sign). Highs and lows are the only definite consequence of this model. Last season was a high, this season was a low. That’s the reality of where we’re at.
Nicely put.
Its not just Brendan in my eyes.We haven`t got a winning mentality on the pitch because none of the coaching staff have ever won anything. Think he needed to win something this y.ear to break this cycle. FSG should sound out Klopp but if he doesn`t want to come then Brendan deserves another year though changes in the coaching staff should be considered.
Get Rafa, as good as Klopp is he is not in RAFA class, thats 1, # 2 no one knows the club like Rafa, #3 no one can identify talent like Rafa, #4 no one can work within constrained budgets to produce more,#5 No one can pull calibre (quality ) players like the name Benitez to liverpool,6# all of the above is obvious why are we wasting time with Klopp and whoever else.
I just dont understand why Klopp is the only alternative..Great manager but there is another candidate with outstanding credentials and intimate knowledge of the club..the question I guess is whether he is bigger than Fenway and their insecurity as Guillem Balague thinks..
i think this is a typical “greener grass on the other side” situation. We are all disappointed we are not challenging for the league again and are odds on to NOT make top 4. Jumping from manager to manager would be a terrible trend to start. That does not breed stability and success, something everyone wants for LFC. I’m not saying Rodgers is our Messiah but I think he’s earned a little more of a leash than three years. Give him a little more slack. If he ends up hanging himself with it will be up to him.
For those saying he’s bound for City, I’m not convinced by that. I think they’re pining for Guardiola, with Begiristain and all that. Plus their obsession over playing a good style of football. If they can’t get him this season, I think it’s possible they’d give Pellegrini another season if possible, if not then try out Vieira for a season, then get Guardiola. Bayern ain’t renewing his contract
The only other competitors would be either Madrid or PSG, Klopp loves being the big daddy of his club, interacting with the fans and the players and the club, he is like the cool dad at Dortmund. He won’t be doing that at Madrid, it just seems such a big fit. I guess he can go to PSG to stomp on that league but he’s too young for that tbh
His style of football and personality means he fits long term project on a football club, plus our fans would love him if he gets his players to serve beers at pubs in Christmas parties like he did at Dortmund. He is really up to loads of community weird shit, bit like the way Rafa interacts with fans
Didn’t Pep come out yesterday and say he was going nowhere?
That’s what I said, that if City can’t get him next season then they’d either keep Pellegrini on for one more or have Vieira in, if it doesn’t work out then they’d get Guardiola once his Bayern contract finishes in 2016
Depends on how desperate they want Guardiola
You remember who else was big on weird community shit? Yes, the one and only. Shankly!!
Isnt it “build a team like shankly did”
Shite song whatever it is. Hate singing it.
Talking of songs though, on Wembley Way, alongside the Villa fans, I was getting a few songs going and I found it pathetic how many of our fans, that were there, don’t know half our songs. Bertie Mee said to Bill Shankly is a great song when you’re amongst opposition fans as is Bring on ya Manchester Utd. Where do these people get their tickets from? Even Every Other Saturday brought silence. I find it odd.
Good article!
It is very difficult to know if giving Rodgers another season is the best thing to do. Throughout the season, I’ve been in the camp that says we should keep him as we are unlikely to do any better and we have played great football under him (although we’ve seen some awful stuff too).
I guess we need to think about what we know for sure about Rodgers;
1. He is capable of sending a team out that plays incredible football, when he has the right personnel.
2. His reputation alone is not enough to attract the best players. Regardless of how his hands are tied by club policy, players don’t appear to be prepared to overlook those issues. Maybe they wouldn’t with any manager, but they certainly don’t think that playing for Rodgers is a big enough draw in itself. By the same token, the best players that we do have do not appear to think that having Rodgers as the manager is reason enough to stick around.
3. Players that have been signed while he has been the boss have been pretty average, on the whole, or unsuitable. They may not have been his choices, but if that is the case then it is a problem that he does not have the stature within the club to force the owners’ hands. At any club, there will be a battle for influence and it is a battle that the fans want the manager to win. Few managers are able to do this.
4. He does not appear to be able to make his players give their all for him, the fans, or the club – particularly when the stakes are highest.
5. He has yet to win anything. However, it is debatable how important it is to win things in the game anymore. The game is about getting points and qualifying for the Champions League on a consistent basis. We won the Champions League ten years ago and came runners-up eight years ago. Arsenal have never won it. Would Arsenal swap their Champions League record, over the last ten years, for ours (both in terms of how often they have qualified and how deep they have gone in the competition)? Some of their fans might, but I doubt the owners would.
The worry is that Rodgers is seen as a bit of lightweight, both by players and the owners. When this is the case, it usually ends up with the fans not getting what they want. I can’t say that I have now decided it is now time for a new man to come in, but I am definitely moving in that direction and I think it will be the same for a lot of fans.
It is also a concern that we are ending this season as a more-diminished club than we were 12 months ago. If we have another bad season, we might well find ourselves marginalised further and at a point that we can no longer become competitive again without the type of owner that Man City or Chelsea have.
In situations like this, it is very tempting to gamble. Klopp to come in, along with a marquee signing like Ibrahimovic. Both would require blank cheques and neither man comes without baggage. Klopp has failed this season and Ibrahimovic’s best years are behind him. It would make a statement though, that we still aspire to be at the top table. We need some kind of catalyst to avoid being the type of club that none of the truly elite players and managers want to touch with a bargepole. Like most of us, I had hoped that Rodgers would be that catalyst, but it is getting harder and harder to keep the faith.
Something big needs to happen and soon.
Personally, if the owners are not looking at or at least talking about Klopp and the potential for him to take over if the option arises, then its the owners who have failed LFC, no on else.
One of your very best, Gareth. The bit were I thought you may have actually been reading my mind was the election stuff.
I’ve had a pretentious Miliband/Rodgers comparison going on for a few weeks now. Both victims of superficial snidery (fucking Gove the other week of all the meffs on Question Time skitting people based on looks – “not prime ministerial” – cheeky cunt). Both make mistakes along the way but are ultimately decent fellas with some progressive ideas. Farage=hodgson for anyone keeping score.
Onto the footy, I’m more concerned with what’s going on in regards to the structure of the club around the manager rather than the capabilities of the manager himself. Like I was after the seasons ending in 2010 and 2012; funny that isn’t it.
For me, I’ve seen enough good, even great, on the pitch December-March and all of last season to think Rodgers is an especially talented coach. On the other hand our first champions league campaign in five years was an embarrassment. It’s frustrating but he’s learning at this level along with his young players.
I obviously don’t think he should, but if he was to go I would genuinely feel bad for the man. I wouldn’t have any reason to be truly gutted like I was for Kenny or Rafa though.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/row-zed/cheer-up-jurgen-klopp-still-5364854
Excellent piece Gareth.
I’m still tending towards the ‘Keep Rodgers’ view myself, but perhaps I’m now roughly 60-40 in favour of that, whereas before this season began it would be more like 98-2!
The one thing I think about Rodgers is that, for all his faults, if we bin him off, he could well be Man City manager by the start of next season. The fact that he is seriously coveted by a top 4 rival suggests either:
i) he’s been amazingly successful at blowing his own trumpet in the press;
ii) he’s actually extremely competent.
I suppose section 1 of the support would go for the second option and section 3 the first.
It’s hard to deny, however, that Klopp is an exciting prospect, although I’m not convinced he would come to a club outside the CL placings and with a ‘sensible’ wage and transfer policy. He might feel he’s had enough of that and is entitled to join a megabucks club.
I’ve said all through this season that Brendan deserves at least another shot, especially given the free-scoring excitement of last year, and I haven’t changed my mind, but if the club were to replace him with Klopp or another exciting name in the summer, I wouldn’t be spitting feathers either. As you say Gareth the club needs to weigh up all the variables and make a decision. Not easy, but that’s what they’re there to do.
Good article that, all I want is the club to win things again, and become invincible. Last season we nearly won the league despite having only one good transfer window in three years when we bought Sturridge and Coutinho. I was not a Rodgers fan but he won me over. However, he is inexperienced and he came from Swansea and the players that Rodgers has identified Allen, Borini, Lovren, Lallana, etc would be good for that level of club but not for a CL club, that is a major problem and something you would not have if you employ a manager that has won things with elite clubs because they have worked with a lot more elite players.
Rodgers is clearly a good coach and improves players that is his major strength, he has also got the team to go on long runs of victories by being inventive with formations, but he has also bombed out players like Sakho and Agger and wanted to replace them with Lovren.
The transfer commitee should be supplying Rodgers with quality players to coach and for two years out of three LFC have had no strikers and guess what no goals the thing that matters most. That is negligence of the highest order.
The first thing Rodgers did was to get rid of Andy Carroll because he was too slow, so why buy Rickie Lambert?
Balotelli is a CL level striker that has been under used because he does not seem to fit any of our systems in the same way Markovic and Lallana are good players with no position and this is the massive problem that you have with the DOF model. It only works if you buy players that fit the coaches system and this is what is so frustrating after last season, we needed a replacement for Suarez and two or three first team players, we had CL football, we were the most exiting team in the league and we are Liverpool,
The first team players bought were Lovren, Moreno, Lallana, Balotelli
No need to buy Lovren not better than Agger and you have Sakho Skirtle and Kolo so why buy him?
Moreno young and with potential but makes mistakes as all young defenders do.
Lallana where does he play in your first 11
Balotelli where does he play in your first 11
Where is the replacement for Suarez and his goals?
Can and Markovic are good young players but again where do they play in your first 11, fortunately Can has found a niche in a back 3.
From last years first 11 Suarez has gone and of the 8 players bought last summer only can and Moreno start with Markovic if we play 3 at the back with all three playing out of position.
Why have we not had a front 3 of Sterling Balotelli and Markovic with Coutinho behind supplying the passes? At least you have players developing in their correct position
So should Rodgers stay or go?
I don’t think it really matters, we have a load of good young players, would Klopp or Rafa do as well with the same squad? Probably? would they be able to identify elite players better than Rodgers? Probably
As long as we play high pressing attacking football and score loads of goals and win things I don’t really care
I hoped there would be a new era under Rodgers – a young, hungry manager with lots of potential.
As season three ends under his stewardship I was of of a mind a short while ago to say I thought Rodgers was good manager but not a GREAT one, that he might get us to fourth this season but he would never get us the Premiership title.
That was about two months ago and now even fourth is looking like a long shot…
Hasn’t Klopp gone from the Champions League final to spending the majority of the season at the BOTTOM of the table, to then only climb to tenth.
Although I agree with a lot of the points, isn’t it a bit hypocritical?
No it’s not, it’s like saying Michael Jackson making one shite album makes him around the same as James Blunt making one shite album
I think it’s more relevant if it’s your most recent album, though.
But Michael Jackson’s record speaks for himself, he’s one of the best. James Blunt might have some no.1 hits (mind boggling I know), but he’s still fucking shite
Not saying Rodgers is shite, but to compare his failures this season with Klopp’s and reckon that makes them no better than each other is just bonkers
Haha, I like where this went!
I get where you’re coming from now, at least Klopp has actually done something before he went from hero to zero, whereas Rodgers hasn’t!
3 Managers in this discussion. Benitez. Trying not to do THAT well in Naples ?! His LFC first halves were often ditchwater dull chess . He has had a bit more kudos added since LFC perhaps. eg UEFA CUP with the Chelsea. Would win a trophy again. Bought Aquilani.
If BR’s Liverpool don’t have strikers for the press game, then Klopp would miss them too. Klopp needs it all to work perfectly, or he doesn’t get Top 3-4. But he looks like good value for fans (in your Groups 1 and 2 anyways!)
BR learns. If he ends the season with results and a plan, then keep the guy. I would want to know what he can do with 2 fit fast strikers, no Gerrard to wrestle with and a tad more hubris over Lovren purchase. Of course its Stability and no Pay-off costs for FSG…
Hi there, first post.
I have to say I’m not one to think re-active decisions are wise but we are watching a man who has had a season of doing so.
We watched a team last season who took THEIR game to other team. We imposed our football onto teams and made them have to compensate and make re-active decisions. I will add also that at times this was without our number 7. We were frightening. This season we have been trying to put out little fires, fitting people in, stop leaking goals and trying to accommodate for teams we play against.
I was excited when Rogers came in, he seemed methodical, calculated and had a great view of how the game should be played and I do think he is a great manager but this season he has had too much to calculate. Anybody that has read the chimp management book that he was promoting with Steve Peters will see his approach and it is very logical and effective but I’m afraid that it takes a little bit more than that. Passion!
Klopp would bring that and I think he would be the perfect fit. I think he would give the club and everybody around it a massive lift.
We need somebody with that frightening football we saw last season, somebody get our vast amount of youth to run through walls for the club and lastly somebody who would not give politicians answers to journalist who see him as a kitten.
We can’t sleep on Klopp as a manager that good a fit will not come round for a few years. It’s time to give Rogers a genuine thank you for showing us the line and let Klopp force us over it.